this is my opinion of course

[ICU]

There is something else you will need to consider. Dr. Spitz believes he sees evidence of a prior strangulation. He suggests it might have been by the collar on her shirt. So you now have THREE possible sources for the petechial hemorrhaging:
1) Strangulation by the garrote cord.
2) Strangulation by the collar or some other means not yet identified.
3) Suffocation due to convulsions caused by the head blow.

Now add into the equation that there was absolutely NO damage to the internal organs in her neck under the cord or to her tongue, AND the fact that the deep red color caused by the cord was localized ONLY under the cord (an important indicator of post-mortem bruising). Both are facts that point to the cord being applied after she was already dead to hide whatever really happened to her.

You said “the cord being applied after she was already dead to hide whatever really happened to her”.
That sounds like a possibility, but think about this, What if she did die of a head injury, that resulted In a convulsion?
Now if you were the father or mother, you think the son or whom ever did it, was in danger of being held for murder, so you both decide to make it look like an intruder came in and killed her, wow what a devious plan, now you know that she will be discovered, so why when the detective suggested that you and a friend look around to see if anything was out of place,
you go directly to the body and unstage what you wanted to look like a murder by someone else, now if he and his wife were going to be cool about it you know the note and all the crying, why discover the body and make your self look guilty, why not just say you checked the house and could not find anything, now that would look bad, because if and when the body was discovered, the husband would have a lot of explaining to do, why not just yell out to the detective that he found her, now that would keep the staging in place.
For someone who wanted to make this look like an intruder did it, should have had the police look around the house, that way he could act surprised when the body was discovered. As a rule the murderer usually does not discover the body.
But the main thing I want to say is, if she died from a blow to the head, why not just leave it that way and say she was Bludgeon to death and left there by the intruder. The note is all wrong anyway. the Ramsey family must have been reading about serial killers to think up a crime like that. Does that sound like what John and Pat read for fun? If I were them I would not bring the police into it, until after I dumped the body someplace far from the house,then I would call the police, really how much trouble would it be to put a little six year old in a duffle bag and drop her off in a secluded area, in the middle of the night, now you have a ransom note and a missing daughter, if they were cool enough to do it, why not do the next step and just dump the body, it is only going to be trouble for them to keep it. This basement thing is a mystery.

_______________
IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

Barbara I know that I have written a lot here and some may be lost in volume, but the question I would like for you to help me with is, where did that blanket found wrapped around the child, come from? why was it in the basement? where was that blanket before it was discovered in the basement? What do you think it was intended for originally in the murder? The blanket wrapped around the child seems odd.

_______________
IMO

I'm not Barbara, but I'd like to give you my opinion re' the blanket.

It was below 10 degrees outside and, although the furnace was likely cranking, it would still be chilly to crawl out of bed and go downstairs in the middle of the night. I think JonBenet went downstairs voluntarily with someone she knew, and she wore the nightgown and carried the blanket downstairs with her to help keep warm.

JMO

 

[ICU]

I'm not Barbara, but I'd like to give you my opinion re' the blanket.

It was below 10 degrees outside and, although the furnace was likely cranking, it would still be chilly to crawl out of bed and go downstairs in the middle of the night. I think JonBenet went downstairs voluntarily with someone she knew, and she wore the nightgown and carried the blanket downstairs with her to help keep warm.

JMO

Sorry about that, must have hit the wrong button, but thanks for the response.

What you said makes sense, It sure makes John Ramsey look stupid, here is a man with considerable wealth and does not keep his alarm system in working order, and seems scrooge like in the heat at night, considering how cold it was outside.
However, this person that took her out of bed that night, may not even had to wake her, it is funny how children can sleep through just about anything, even picking them up if they are tired enough will not even wake them, they can even sleep with the television blaring in the background. So I believe that she felt secured in her bed, and if she felt someone lift her, she probably would have thought it was one of her parents, I know this because my sister in law asked me to pick up her 5 year old son, whom had fallen to sleep on the couch, he did not wake up when I carried him to his bed. Now I’m not his father but I’m sure he did not know whom was carrying him, so he was not alarmed. I think it would be easier for the perp to carry the child, instead of making her walk to the basement. Now about the blanket, are you sure it came from her bed? Do you think that the perp wanted to just kill her and leave her in the basement? What do you think was on the perps mind when he/she decided to take her to the basement? An evil thought process is going on here, there is intent to brutalize this child and murder her, it was planed out IMO, I can think of no other reason for bringing her to the basement of that house. But why on Christmas eve, would this perp want to kill this child, it looks to me as if a killing was to be the end result of that night. Do you have any gut feeling about all this, not what other people have said, just your feeling or observation, have you seen the photos and autopsy report on this case? Do you know what the layout of the house looks like?

_______________
IMO

 

[Barbara]

Hi Barbara,

You said that “you will find that the murder doesn't make sense to a criminal”. Why would it not make sense to a criminal? His way of thinking is different than ours, we would never think that what he does makes sense, so how can we say it would not make sense to a criminal?

With this statement you leave the door open to "closing it" as well when the rationale that the family had no "history", "reason", etc. comes up. Frequently, the statement is made that it made no sense for any family member to have committed this crime given what we know. For me the real "criminal" type wouldn't take the many chances taken if in fact, it were an intruder. That is what doesn't make sense. An intruder would not have to take such great effort to cover up his tracks, only to leave a handwritten note that could possibly be traced back.

You said “the vast majority of those theorists DO NOT believe this was a premeditated "criminal mind" at work” They have been wrong many times before, I do not like to follow the majority, they cloud the mind with a lot of misinformation

Let me clarify this statement. The "vast" majority of the theorists came to these conclusions on their own, and that is how they became the "vast majority". It's not a matter of "following" the majority, one has to follow the evidence and the information. Misinformation has already been out there from the "majority" of Ramsey supporters, who, with no real knowledge to back up their statements will just state that without a doubt, the Ramseys could not have done this, or to make the misinformational statement that there was a stun gun, she struggled, it wasn't pineapple, etc. Misinformation can come from everyone and everywhere and has nothing to do with majority or minority, at least on these forums

You said “The vast majority believe that whichever member of the family is responsible, it was spontaneous, whether accidental or not.” Spontaneous that is a curious word, can you think of anything that might result in that kind of spontaneous or accidental result in the death of the child? What do you think was going on? Do you have any concrete evidence that anyone in the family was that unstable?

It's not such a curious word; it simply means that it was not planned. I can think of many things that would be a "spontaneous" scenario. A family member just snapping, having gotten angry, or a family member, even accidentally hitting her and causing more damage than was intended is still "spontaneous". There is nobody on the forums that has any concrete evidence that the family was stable or unstable. Some will go by the theory that if there was nothing documented that there were any psychiatric problems, including depression, than it couldn't be the case. Wrong. So as far as evidence, nobody has any either way. All part of the mystery

You said “A real criminal would NEVER leave a note” never say NEVER.

The only response I have for that statement is that it is still safe to say that it had never happened before (a body AND a ransom note) and has not happened since. So for me, while "never" may be strong, it still works in my thinking thus far regarding this type of crime

You said “A real criminal wouldn't make sure that there is no real hard evidence they were there AND THEN LEAVE A HANDWRITTEN NOTE” Barbara no one is perfect, criminals almost always make mistakes, and I’m sure that if the family did it, and it was the first time for them, there would be a lot of mistakes.

If the family did it, and it was the first time for them, they made some mistakes. Unfortunately, the crime scene was so tainted that we'll just never know exactly how many mistakes were made. One of the mistakes IMO is the ransom note

Barbara I know that I have written a lot here and some may be lost in volume, but the question I would like for you to help me with is, where did that blanket found wrapped around the child, come from? why was it in the basement? where was that blanket before it was discovered in the basement? What do you think it was intended for originally in the murder? The blanket wrapped around the child seems odd.

_

The blanket, if memory serves me right, was in the dryer of the house. I think it's intention was for the exact purpose it was used for...because they cared about the victim, the perp/s didn't want her just lying on a cold, hard, basement floor, so the perp/s wrapped her. It's not odd. It's a sign that whomever killed her, cared for her. That's been done before in many murders______________

 

[ICU]

What I find interesting is that the alarm system is not working or shut down, how easy for the killer not to have to worry about that. A ransom note, and a dead body. This sounds like a walk in the park. But the big question is if you kill the girl and want it to look like an intruder kidnapped her, why not take the body out and dump it, why hang on to it? And have the cops swarming allover the place and find her, Just go to the trouble of dumping the body at some secluded place, then call the cops, now how hard is that to do?
Considering all the trouble of making it look like a crime and not an accident. How stupid can they be? Everyone knows that the longer you keep the body, the greater the chance of discovery. _______________
IMO

 

[Barbara]

Considering all the trouble of making it look like a crime and not an accident. How stupid can they be? Everyone knows that the longer you keep the body, the greater the chance of discovery. _______________
IMO

EXACTLY! If an accident, the family still has to explain it and take responsibility. They are not stupid. NO WAY would they dump her outside where animals may get at her and who knows when the body would be found. They wanted her found, they loved her, but wanted no responsibility. That's why John must have gotten so frustrated, he just went and found her himself! He was just hoping they would have found her initially and when they didn't, he waited for the opportunity to go ahead and make a beeline to the body and "find" it

 

[ICU]

paraonoid schizophrenics are the most likely to be involved in violent crimes, and this is borne out in studies of the prison population. So, if there is a mental illness involved, I'd look for the paranoid shizo....and many of them can be high-functioning. An addict that used say methamphetamine is what I suspect. They would have a feeling of omnipotence while high....and they could be prone to violent outbursts when coming down. I think that could explain the unexplainable in the crime, such as the ransom note...the risk of entering the home...the impulsive murder (at least that's the way it appears to me). University Hill was experiencing a rise in crime due primarily to drug usage in the area---if you look at the surrounding environment and what was going on, a druggie is a good suspect. Transients had moved to the Hill area, after being kicked off of Pearl Street---and there were fights and violent crimes several times a week. Stun guns and bats were becoming weapons of choice in the area.

The Ramseys explained the alarm system, and why they didn't use it. It was obsolete, and the kids had set it off in the past, and it made a very loud noise. They thought they were in a safe neighborhood, their guard was down. Many people have alarm systems and don't use them. I think it was a real tragedy that so much money was spent on the house remodelling it, and so little consideration given to security---basement windows are prime places of intruder entry-----and at least one grate was not even secured to the ground. If someone saw a broken window, they would know that window was not armed.

The problem with being paranoid schizophrenic, and being high on drugs while breaking into a home is you are just to noisy, there is too much going on inside of you to quietly break into a house with 4 people there, besides if you are going to kill, why not kill everyone there?

_______________
IMO

 

[BrotherMoon]

So many aspects of the staging and the note do not make sense as a crime or a faked crime for discovery by police that I am led to think the entire thing was done by Patsy for Patsy with no real concern for anything or anyone outside her skull.

This includes the "entombment", the "shroud" and the "stigmata".

 

[ICU]

EXACTLY! If an accident, the family still has to explain it and take responsibility. They are not stupid. NO WAY would they dump her outside where animals may get at her and who knows when the body would be found. They wanted her found, they loved her, but wanted no responsibility. That's why John must have gotten so frustrated, he just went and found her himself! He was just hoping they would have found her initially and when they didn't, he waited for the opportunity to go ahead and make a beeline to the body and "find" it

Barbara you have a big heart, and a Fierce one at that. What you just wrote is an interesting way of looking at it.

 

[ICU]

So many aspects of the staging and the note do not make sense as a crime or a faked crime for discovery by police that I am led to think the entire thing was done by Patsy for Patsy with no real concern for anything or anyone outside her skull.

This includes the "entombment", the "shroud" and the "stigmata".

I have asked about patsy having bipolar disorder, just to describe a 3 of symptoms.
1. Sudden irritability or rage, particularly when grandiose plans are thwarted.
2. Feeling on top of the world. A sensation of sheer and utter happiness that nothing - not even bad news or a horrifying event or tragedy - can change.
3. Grandiose delusions. Individuals imagine that they have special connections with God, celebrities, or political leaders.
Do you think that someone with this illness could do what was done to JonBenet?
Joan Crawford used a wire hanger on her daughter. So she says.
_______________
IMO

 

[TLynn]

Perhaps -

The Ramseys expected the police to find the body. Officer French, first officer on the scene, didn't find it. Fleet White searched the basement didn't find it. John previously "searched the house" and didn't find her....approximately seven hours passed without the body being discovered.

Perhaps -

John realized the body was not going to be discovered by anyone...it was hidden too well and the anxiety of the kidnapping "charade" - especially without a phone call was too much -- first chance, he had to find her.

John didn't actually undo any staging - FW was an eyewitness to the discovery - he pulled off the tape (which was placed on JonBenet's mouth after death) and, I believe, removed one of the wrist ligatures (which was loosely tied).

John found the body - because no one else did or was going to....

 

[TLynn]

The blanket was in the basement dryer (according to the housekeeper & Patsy Ramsey, herself). It is speculated that the Barbie nightgown was "static cling" - hence, it was also found.

 

[Britt]

John found the body - because no one else did or was going to....

I agree, TLynn. I also think it's possible he got wind the big guns were on the way - the FBI and maybe search dogs - and the last thing John wanted was real law enforcement at the house, so he prevented that by "finding" the body, thereby turning the "kidnapping" into a murder and ending any FBI jurisdiction. Better to keep things local and in the hands of the Good Ole Boys and bumbling local cops.

 

[BrotherMoon]

I have asked about patsy having bipolar disorder,
Do you think that someone with this illness could do what was done to JonBenet?

_______________
IMO

Imagine an equilateral cross, a plus sign. In bipolar disorder the ego swings between the upper and lower extremes of the cross and in borderline personality disorder the ego swings between the horizontal extremes. Either way, the ego has trouble mediating the swings, either way, over time there is a degredation to the authority of the ego with an increase in irrational behavior the result.

A psychosis occurs when the authority of the ego degrades to the point that it becomes subject to the contents of the unconscious. The unconscious is the source of symbol, dream and myth. A psychotic may identify with a mythic figure and view themselves as part of a mythic storyline. They may exhibit behavior that appears structured but actually lacks rationallity, i.e. moral decision making as they follow the mythic script.

Patsy shows signs of having been in a progressive psychosis due to the degredation of a narcissistic ego structure that exposed a borderline type ego core. That infantile/juvenile ego was attached to persona identities from Patsy's youth, along with the conflicts of her youth. Those conflicts and the latent resolutions were worked out on her daughter by proxy in unconscious transference.

Patsy is still using JonBenet as angel to work out her conflicts, which now are overtly spiritual.

 

[ICU]

So many aspects of the staging and the note do not make sense as a crime or a faked crime for discovery by police that I am led to think the entire thing was done by Patsy for Patsy with no real concern for anything or anyone outside her skull.

This includes the "entombment", the "shroud" and the "stigmata".

Could you give me a believable scenario about that night? Take me step by step into what you think really happened, from what you know about the case, use as much imagination as possible, but be as logical as possible, start from when everyone is asleep in their beds. This is interesting to see just what you could put together. I’m not trying to be funny, I’m just curious.

_______________
IMO

 

[Toltec]

Imagine an equilateral cross, a plus sign. In bipolar disorder the ego swings between the upper and lower extremes of the cross and in borderline personality disorder the ego swings between the horizontal extremes. Either way, the ego has trouble mediating the swings, either way, over time there is a degredation to the authority of the ego with an increase in irrational behavior the result.

A psychosis occurs when the authority of the ego degrades to the point that it becomes subject to the contents of the unconscious. The unconscious is the source of symbol, dream and myth. A psychotic may identify with a mythic figure and view themselves as part of a mythic storyline. They may exhibit behavior that appears structured but actually lacks rationallity, i.e. moral decision making as they follow the mythic script.

Patsy shows signs of having been in a progressive psychosis due to the degredation of a narcissistic ego structure that exposed a borderline type ego core. That infantile/juvenile ego was attached to persona identities from Patsy's youth, along with the conflicts of her youth. Those conflicts and the latent resolutions were worked out on her daughter by proxy in unconscious transference.

Patsy is still using JonBenet as angel to work out her conflicts, which now are overtly spiritual.

Does that explain Patsy's behavior after JonBenet's body was found...John found Patsy behind an armoire curled up in a fetal position, mumbling to herself.

 

[ICU]

The police DID look around the house. But remember, they thought it was a kidnapping, so they were looking for entry points, not dead bodies. And John Ramsey was in no position to order the police to do a better search of the house. All they could do was sit there and wait for the body to be discovered. Luckily, the detective told John Ramsey and Fleet White to re-search the house from top to bottom. That gave John Ramsey the opportunity to discover the body.

You said “The police DID look around the house. But remember, they thought it was a kidnapping, so they were looking for entry points, not dead bodies.”

What kind of training did those cops have? Sounds like they were graduates of the keystone cops academy. Even we know that the basement is a prime entry point for an intruder. Don’t tell me that the cops were afraid of the dark in the basement not to look there, but instead let the possible perps check it out. Does that make any sense?

_______________
IMO

 

[ICU]

I think Patsy was diddling (digitally manipulating) JB for some time before the event as compulsive behavior, latent sexual awareness transfered to the girl, or it was part of Patsy punishing herself by proxy with intercourse resentment. I don't think it was part of the staging as she tried to clean it up, back tracking as it were. Patsy took JB to the doc many times, I think treating herself, again by proxy, medically for her compulsive intrussions. The two are connected.

As far as John going along, just think of all the women who turned a blind eye to their men abusing their daughters, chosing not to see. I think John would rather live a lie than realize he sleeps with the Devil. Patsy didn't exhibit the same attachment to Burke, so a threat is not sensed. However, I think Patsy may have narcissistic plans for Burke concerning religion. I hope so.

As far as the cushioning, I agree, that scenario is mentioned in The Silence of the Lambs. I'm not sure about why_nutt.

This is an interesting theory, but unless it can be proven that what you say about Patsy did to her daughter “diddling (digitally manipulating) JB” then it is just conjecture, a guess. You seem to be convinced of Patsy’s part in this as the main perp. I’m not saying that you are wrong, all I want to know is, how can you prove, that what you think is true?

_______________
IMO

 

[ICU]

I heard that Fleet envied John about something he had, that Fleet wanted, That in it’s self seems odd because Fleet was a rich man and could afford whatever John owned, except for the little girl, I’m not sure what it was, but does anyone know if Fleet was close to JonBenet, in a inappropriate way, you know kind of like someone making you feel uncomfortable? Did he express any kind of father like attention on the girl? and did Fleet have a key to the house? He would know that the alarm was not working, John surely would have told him, being a friend in all. This may not seem important but does Fleet have an artistic talent? In other words did he do paintings?
_______________
IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

You said ?Fleet White searched the basement didn't find it.? How did he miss her?
They both Fleet and John searched it later and found her, It sounds like Fleet is lying about not seeing her or she was covered up by the invisibility cloak. Did Fleet have a key to the house? I heard that he was some kind of pervert am I right?

_______________
IMO

Fleet White searched the house by himself minutes after getting there, which was shortly after the cops got there at about 6:00 A.M. Fleet unlatched, opened the wine cellar door, leaned in and looked inside without actually entering the room. It was dark inside the room and he couldn't find the light switch. Since he didn't see anything suspicious Fleet closed the door and relatched it.

Around 1:00 P.M. John and Fleet searched the basement and John, who was several steps ahead of Fleet, opened the wine cellar door and found JonBenet lying on the floor not far from the door. John removed the tape from JonBenet's mouth and untied one of the tightly-tied knots (according to John) that held her arms together at the wrists, and he carried her upstairs.

Fleet White insists that when he opened the wine cellar door early that morning he would have seen JonBenet lying on the floor despite the darkness, especially since she was wrapped in a white blanket. IMO Fleet White knows who killed JonBenet because he knows the body had been moved. The court protective order prevents Fleet from publicly saying who did it.

JMO