TN - Shooting at private Christian Covenant School, Nashville, suspect dead, multiple victims, 27 Mar 2023 #2
- Thread starter imstilla.grandma
- Start date
- Status
Sounds like the writings will not be released any time soon.
JMO
www.wsmv.com
Cameron said that regardless of how she rules releasing the journals or keeping them private, someone is going to appeal. So, she gave every impression it’s best to rule quickly because as the judge pointed out the appeals could take months, maybe even a year.
Meaning, we’re likely no where close to seeing the writings be publicly released, Cameron said.
JMO
What’s happening next in the hearings over The Covenant School shooter’s writings?
Judge Myles made reference to the public records law saying these cases should be decided immediately.
Cameron said that regardless of how she rules releasing the journals or keeping them private, someone is going to appeal. So, she gave every impression it’s best to rule quickly because as the judge pointed out the appeals could take months, maybe even a year.
Meaning, we’re likely no where close to seeing the writings be publicly released, Cameron said.
Ontario Mom
stay safe ♥ be kind
- Joined
- May 21, 2013
- Messages
- 17,140
- Reaction score
- 133,114
Can you elaborate on how or by who or what has led you to this possibility?
I mean, it's entirely possible. Kids can be really stinking cruel.
So can adults, for that matter.
jmo
iirc, the shooter attended the school for third and fourth grade. Her child victims were age 9. The Uvalde shooter was bullied in school and shot-up his 4th grade classroom. I don't believe it is a coincidence.
jmo
Secret Service study: Most school shooters were badly bullied, showed warning signs
By Colleen Long, Associated Press WASHINGTON — Most students who committed deadly school attacks over the past decade were badly bullied, had a history of disciplinary trouble and their behavior concerned others but was never reported, according to a U.S. Secret Service study released Thursday...
coloradosun.com
waldojabba
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2019
- Messages
- 1,683
- Reaction score
- 25,873
Ianal but this seems to be a “ head spinner”. Very multi layered and complex.
Legally there must be some type of precedent that would bear as far as who has standing in this case. Hopefully some lawyers will weigh in here in these threads or in the media. Are we able to acess the filings?
Iirc, In the killers last tweet to her “friend” about something bad about to happen, didn’t Audrey mention she had left enough evidence behind to explain - so are the writings/ journals evidence? Very confusing to me.
Also fascinating to me that redactions of the church building schematics and names do not solve the issues here. Wondering where the monies are coming from for what must be enormous legal fees.
Imo This is an enormous effort to keep the writings of a criminal secret. Which will just lead to more idle speculation and negative press for those parties.
I am very interested from a legal perspective how it will play out.
GRT
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2020
- Messages
- 2,504
- Reaction score
- 21,266
I get what you are saying, but (MOO) I don't think this fits the hate crime definition because it appears it was driven by personal grievances against the church.
That said, I'm not a fan of hate crime charges in general because a crime is a crime is a crime, and it's not like the family members of slain victims feel any different based on why the perpetrator committed the crime.
In order to qualify for hate crime designation, I think it has to be shown that the perpetrator targeted marginalized persons based on their marginalized status. For example, killing someone because of their race or religion.
I suppose the designation of this shooting could change if the shooter's manifesto claimed that he wanted to kill all Christians because he hates Christians. But more likely, he felt the church judged him unfairly and he decided to take revenge, which boots it out of hate crime status.
All just my opinion only.
What is motivating the parents of the shooter, I wonder, to want to give the Covenant Church School the ownership of the shooter's writings. My guess is that the parents want to keep the writings out of the media/public, and by giving the documents to Covenant Church then they help the Church with the issue of "standing" in the court case. If Covenant has "standing", then they can make their case before the court, like the other parties will do, regarding their goal of keeping the writings from being released to the public.
I don't see what else this will accomplish. Since LE seized the documents as part of the criminal case, they are now public record, regardless of who "owns" them. Although it sounds like the attorney for the shooter's parents is arguing that "ownership" of the documents is a legal issue regarding their public release. The judge may have to rule on this issue as well, while she is adjudicating the issue of whether or not to make the documents public.
With regard to the issue of the cost of legal fees/attorneys, I think that the shooter's parents must think it is worth it to help keep their daughter's writings from public release. I doubt the documents show that she was bullied or otherwise a victim of the Covenant Church School, as if that was the case, I think the parents would be wiling to let this become public, to in some way offer an explanation/motive (albeit sick and evil) for why their daughter acted as she did.
I think the Covenant Church is not likely spending enormous amounts of money on legal fees, as you mention, because often a member of a congregation who is an attorney will step up to help a church in a situation like this and provide their services/expertise pro bono or at a very low cost.
JMO
Last edited:
Ontario Mom
stay safe ♥ be kind
- Joined
- May 21, 2013
- Messages
- 17,140
- Reaction score
- 133,114
At the federal level, if the targetted victim or victims were targetted for their religious beliefs (including what the perp may believe to be unfairly judged by a Christian church), that IS a hate crime.
Learn About Hate Crimes
A hate crime is a crime motivated by bias against race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity or disability. Learn more about hate crimes in the United States.
The state of TN defines it exactly the same way:
"A crime committed by a perpetrator who intentionally selected the person or the property that was damaged or otherwise affected by the crime, in whole or in part, because of the perpetrator’s belief or perception regarding the race, religion, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, ancestry, or gender of that person or the owner or occupant of that property." Understanding Hate Crimes: Definitions
In this case, the mass shooting of Christian people in a Christian school, has not been designated a hate crime.
Personally I find that incredibly bizarre.
jmo
waldojabba
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2019
- Messages
- 1,683
- Reaction score
- 25,873
Thanks for the thoughtful response @Sundog
BBM above -
Yes I agree - I think that is the legal issue that I am grappling with. I wonder are there any past cases where this same type or similar issue has come up. It seems the parents legal angle is a very creative approach or" end run" around what is normal procedure. Fascinating.
As far as what the documents hold - I have no idea obviously but only speculation like everybody else.
The parties calling to keep the docs secret all have their own motives - let's just say I don't buy in to their publically stated reasons.
Below is a link to a tweet back from the court case in May - evidently between all parties there were over 20 lawyers in the court. Once again I am not a lawyer but that's quite a few!
There seems to ba ALOT at stake here and I wonder why so much need for secrecy about a young killers writings. The more the opposition buckles down the curiouser it gets for me
MOO
Last edited:
GRT
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2020
- Messages
- 2,504
- Reaction score
- 21,266
I think that's probably why--because it seems (from what we now know) that the church was targeted based on some warped sense of revenge.At the federal level, if the targetted victim or victims were targetted for their religious beliefs (including what the perp may believe to be unfairly judged by a Christian church), that IS a hate crime.
Learn About Hate Crimes
A hate crime is a crime motivated by bias against race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity or disability. Learn more about hate crimes in the United States.www.justice.gov
The state of TN defines it exactly the same way:
"A crime committed by a perpetrator who intentionally selected the person or the property that was damaged or otherwise affected by the crime, in whole or in part, because of the perpetrator’s belief or perception regarding the race, religion, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, ancestry, or gender of that person or the owner or occupant of that property." Understanding Hate Crimes: Definitions
In this case, the mass shooting of Christian people in a Christian school, has not been designated a hate crime.
Personally I find that incredibly bizarre.
jmo
IMO, perhaps the shooter wanted revenge for the church not accepting his/her lifestyle. If so, it wouldn't qualify as a hate crime.
GRT
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2020
- Messages
- 2,504
- Reaction score
- 21,266
That sounds possible. If the writings/manifesto named someone in the church, the parents might feel as though the church members have been traumatized enough and don't want the writings to be made public.
Or, they could be thinking along the lines we previously discussed, and they may feel releasing the writings to the public could contribute to another copycat-type event by an unstable person. A few peer-reviewed studies indicate the media coverage surrounding these shootings could contribute to future shooting events.
We may never know unless the parents come out and state their reasoning.
angelainwi
Certified Trauma Counselor
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2010
- Messages
- 1,972
- Reaction score
- 7,303
I would think that the church would want the writings released if they were anti-Christian.
I suspect that their safety and healing are their highest priorities right now.
angelainwi
Certified Trauma Counselor
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2010
- Messages
- 1,972
- Reaction score
- 7,303
So should the public respect those highest priorities and not push for the writings to be released?
PrairieWind
Verified Attorney
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2009
- Messages
- 6,370
- Reaction score
- 42,350
I would tend to think otherwise. The writings may make allegations against the church or something to that effect, even if untrue, the church would not want public. And I think it possible the church just wants to forgive this person and move on.
elevatorific
Former Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2022
- Messages
- 526
- Reaction score
- 2,117
Exactly.
I don’t understand our need to mystify the school’s motives for wanting to fight the release. Considering they don't even know all of what the writings include, the Occam’s razor of it all is that based on items they do know about - a "blueprint on total destruction,” journals dedicated to previous school shooters, firearms training materials, lots of artwork - I can totally understand why this traumatized school wouldn’t want to give the shooter notoriety with that.
To those who don’t think that’s a real concern, look no further than Elliot Rodger. Of course, he personally sent his deranged “memoir” out so widely that there was never a possibility to keep it from publishing. He is still lionized as a hero of incels, his memoir is their bible, and mass murderers have explicitly praised him as an inspiration for their attacks as far away as Oregon and Toronto. I’m not at all surprised that this church/school community would want to avoid that kind additional pain at all costs.
IMO, if there’s anything resembling a motive in Hale’s writings, I trust FBI BAU to uncover it and I see no reason why LE would want to hide such a finding. Quite the opposite.
But thus far, it sounds like there is no clear motive, just like so many shooters before this.
all jmo.
Last edited:
PrairieWind
Verified Attorney
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2009
- Messages
- 6,370
- Reaction score
- 42,350
It raises a good question, would that be a hate crime? I don't have an answer, I guess I'd have to think about that. I think I have said before that I am not a fan of hate crime laws (not because I am in favor or hate, I certainly am not). But because I think they are difficult to enforce, cause problems for prosecutors and ultimately are just as likely to cause more animosity.
- Status