Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[Cherwell]

I find his excuse that he believed it was an intruder laughable from the start. The FIRST thing anyone would do in that situation is check on the person sharing their bed. IMO it falls apart right there for me.

Especially as he now says that they had been in conversation moments earlier.

 

[Cherwell]

This is interesting

http://ewn.co.za/Features/oscarpistorius/Witnesses

It includes a downloadable pdf containing a list of all 107 potential prosecution witnesses.
According to the article, the number who will actually appear at the trial may be as few as 20.

 

[shane13]

This is interesting

http://ewn.co.za/Features/oscarpistorius/Witnesses

It includes a downloadable pdf containing a list of all 107 potential prosecution witnesses.
According to the article, the number who will actually appear at the trial may be as few as 20.

There are errors in that piece.

it says that OP threatened Mark Batchelor at that race track. It was billionaire Quinton van der Burgh who was threatened at the track (for dating Sam Taylor--even though she and OP had broken up). QvdB then got Batchelor to call OP who threatened him. OP allegedly told both men he was going to **** them up and break their legs. interesting that the much better case against OP (IMO) is with MvdB, but he was not listed.

Curiously it names OP's friends Samantha Greyvenstein and Justin Divaris, and says they are not friends with OP any more. It implies, and other msm pieces have claimed they no longer believe that the 2 were in love and would have married.

Ex-GF Melissa Rom, if called, will have much to say...

Curiously Aimee, Henke and Arnold Pistorius are on the list-- but no Carl P. Carl got to OP's house very early, and he or atty Oldwage likely removed the 5th phone from the crime scene. To me it is fascinating that 3 Pistorius family members are on the list, but not Carl.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Cherwell]

There are errors in that piece.

To be honest, I only glanced at the article. It was the attachment that interested me.

 

[zqtpie]

After all the evidence is presented, will there be closing arguments? And when the case is passed over to M'Lady for a decision, is it likely to take days (or weeks) for the verdict to come through due to the legal reasoning she must provide? Not sure what that involves, but obviously it's not just a guilty/not guilty ticked off on a sheet like a jury would do. Just wondering...

If OP suffers from PTSD, might I suggest Dr Richard Samuels?! He'd probably jump at the chance to relocate...

 

[Interested Bystander]

I am relisting an earlier post of mine because I think certain points make more sense now that the trial is underway, in particular point 12. The PT infer IMO that OPs story is not quite what they believe to have happened.


THE 13 ALLEGATIONS PROSECUTORS WILL PRESENT TO THE MURDER TRIAL
The 13 witness allegations that state prosecutors will reportedly present in the murder trial next month.
1. Witnesses heard 'talking like fighting' and a woman constantly speaking in a tone that suggested an argument, which stopped after the shots were fired.
2. Two witnesses heard a woman scream before shots were fired.
3. Two other witnesses heard shots and then a woman scream, followed by more shots.
4. Pistorius's online activity at home undermines the picture of a loving couple spending time together. On Valentine's Day.
5. The number of shots, their grouping and their trajectory indicate Pistoritus intended to kill the person behind the closed bathroom door.
6. The position and condition of the gun in the bathroom.
7. Pistorius got a gun and shot through the closed door without finding out who was behind it or whether or not he was in danger.
8. Steenkamp was clothed when she was shot.
9. Steenkamp was standing upright facing the door when she was shot.
10. Steenkamp had something to eat hours before she was killed.
11. The presence of the cellphones in the bathroom militates against a version that Steenkamp innocently went to the toilet at the time.
12. The fact and the way in which Pistorius broke down the toilet door.
13. Pistorius's version 'is not reasonably possibly true and it is our case that if rejected by the court the objective facts will prove the murder with direct intent of the deceased'.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-shooting.html

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Stip only arrived when Reeva was already downstairs on the floor and Oscar was attending to her. Baba was there when Oscar was carrying her downstairs. Clearly Stipp arrived after Stander, his daughter, Baba and his guard. However, with all of them there at least one point in time when Stipp arrived he could have asked the question of all of them. I recall him asking Stander, his daughter and Baba but I am going to run through Stipp's oral evidence again.

I have since listened to Stipp's evidence again and he says he asked Stander to make the emergency call. Stander dialled Netcare and passed the phone to Dr Stipp who proceeded to organise the ambulance. This is not in agreement with Baba's testimony when he said Stander ordered him to call an ambulance. This could throw Baba's evidence into doubt.

My understanding is that when Baba arrived , first Miss Stander went in the house and Mr Stander was at the door in front of Baba and immediately tried to send him away from the scene saying him to go to the gate and call the police and ambulance .Meanwhile MR Stipp came to house and he arranged the calls from the house as well. I don't see any confliction here so as to throw Baba's evidence away. Stander might have thought that it would be good for MR Stipp as a doctor to call the Netcare immediately as Baba was on his way to the gate .

 

[Interested Bystander]

My understanding is that when Baba arrived , first Miss Stander went in the house and Mr Stander was at the door in front of Baba and immediately tried to send him away from the scene saying him to go to the gate and call the police and ambulance .Meanwhile MR Stipp came to house and he arranged the calls from the house as well. I don't see any confliction here so as to throw Baba's evidence away. Stander might have thought that it would be good for MR Stipp as a doctor to call the Netcare immediately as Baba was on his way to the gate .

Good, I do hope you are right.

 

[whiterum]

This is one reason why I'm thinking Oscar's version is plausible. It may seem silly but Oscar doesn't seem to think like most people. Perhaps he has some sort of paranoid disorder like a personality disorder. Several stories suggest that every time he hears a noise or thinks he hears a noise he goes into a state of fearful hysteria and thinks there's an intruder in his home. Has he ever been robbed? Perhaps he has a sort of PTSD. Idk. Maybe his paranoia stretched over into his relationships, thus the fits of anger and yelling.

Not according to his girlfriend of 18 months who described amongst others a similar occasion regarding a bathroom noise at which time he promptly woke her up and told her of the bathroom noise before approaching the bathroom to check. He did not shout or scream towards the noise or tell ST to phone the police, why not what was different on this occasion.

 

[wishIknewmore]

Originally Posted by kittychi
.

Agreed! I still don't know where it fits in that Oscar went downstairs, opened his front door, went out and started his car, opened the car door and ran back up to get Reeva before security & Dr. Stipp et al arrived at his door.

Was he really going to take her to his car and only put her down on the floor because all of those people showed up at his door?

From Oscars affidavit, and Bail Hearing statement, no mention is made of this event.

I havent seen Standar 's ( head of security , and first man on the scene ) statement.. maybe he or his wife, lets call her his wife for the moment, it was either Mrs or MZ Standar who arrived, and there for by a split second was the second person on the scene.. either one of them could have done the car starting business but, why wouldnt they take Reeva in their car?? Surely, SURELY they wouldnt have expected OSCAR to do the driving?? under these circumstances?? Stipp clearly stated Oscar was distraught, so distraught he thought he might be going upstairs to kill himself. Stipp , as a first procedue tried to ascertain where the gun was and who had it before he did anything .

This is one reason why I'm thinking Oscar's version is plausible. It may seem silly but Oscar doesn't seem to think like most people. Perhaps he has some sort of paranoid disorder like a personality disorder. Several stories suggest that every time he hears a noise or thinks he hears a noise he goes into a state of fearful hysteria and thinks there's an intruder in his home. Has he ever been robbed? Perhaps he has a sort of PTSD. Idk. Maybe his paranoia stretched over into his relationships, thus the fits of anger and yelling.

I never thought about it though its certainly possible that OP has PTSD or a disorder that might explain his knee jerk reactions. You hear of the A-list celebrities complain about times where they felt their life was in danger whether it be from a paparazzi car chase or mob of fans. It appears that the level of violence,especially in home invasions, in SA might escalate this fear. There are other examples of people accidentally shooting a burglar only to find out it was a loved one. OP has a history, according to several people including old friends, of being reckless with a gun and OP's own admission of "going into recon" mode over something as simple as a washing machine.

What makes this go from a "grave mistake" possibly caused by PTSD to a possible homicide is OP's actions before and after the shooting. Between the witnesses accounts and then all of OP's phone calls after the account something doesn't add up. I can understand one going back and forth between the bedroom and bathroom. He was in shock, had to get his legs, then get the bat, etc. Now if the story stopped here and there weren't witnesses mentioning a woman screaming and there weren't so many hole in OP's story, I would still expect OP to get some serious jail time. Maybe it would be a Culpable Homicide (just learning about SA law) but its not just a terrible accident. It was an "accident waiting to happen."

 

[Interested Bystander]

A bit of light relief.

“Chester Missing, a puppet character that satirizes South Africa on television, tweeted: “Next Roux will be cross examining the door: Can you be sure you were closed?”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...05ae22-a6c3-11e3-b865-38b254d92063_story.html

 

[wishIknewmore]

Obviously, the dogs made a mistake, too.

:floorlaugh:

 

[wishIknewmore]

and if someone heard 2 dogs barking, its a pound to a penny that will be Oscars rendition of dogbarking too.

I responded with :floor laugh: on the first post. Not going to quote them all but the next few post made me spit out my coffee. Thanks for the laugh when everything else is so serious.

 

[wishIknewmore]

Note: This is a work in progress... please add or make corrections...I could not locate a time for the entries marked with ???. I have added minor4th notes denoted with an asterisk


Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...1769/Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy.html

February 14, 2013

6 p.m.- Reeva entered the complex alone in her Mini Cooper.
Pistorius entered the complex shortly thereafter. He was on his phone.

1:56 a.m.- neighbor Estelle van der Merwe:
“I woke up the morning at 1:56am to sounds of someone talking loudly and fighting,’’ she told the court. “It lasted about an hour.’’

http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...rrifying-screams/story-fnh81gzi-1226845099657

*2:00 a.m. - Werwe heard what sounded like a woman's voice on one side of an argument

2:20 a.m.- Baba stated in court that at 2.20 am everything seemed normal during a security check.

3:00a.m-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-bloodcurdling-screams-followed-by-shots.html

*3:00 - 3:15 a.m. -Stipp was woken up by 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

*3:00 - 3:17 a.m. - Stipp reports he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

3:15a.m- Dr Stipp made a call at 3.15 am and spoke with Baba for 16 seconds. Stipp reported the shots and asked security to come and see where the shots were coming from.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*Burger and Johnson awoke to the sounds of loud screams they identified as coming from a female

*3:15- 3:16 a.m. - Burger and Johnson report they heard yelling "help, help, help"

3:16 a.m.-

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/79d46...,-witness-phone-calls-under-scrutiny-20140306

*3:17 a.m. – Stipp heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

*3:17 a.m. Burger and Johnson heard "3 or 4" sounds they believe to be gunshots

*After 3:17 a.m. - Werwe heard "loud crying" that she initially thought was a woman, but her husband identified the voice as Oscar Pistorius

????-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*3:20 a.m. - Oscar calls Netcare and reports that they advised him to take Reeva to the hospital and not wait for the ambulance

???- Baba spoke to Pistorius on the phone and Pistorius said, "Security, everything is fine".

3:24a.m.-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

???-- Johan Stipp, a doctor who lived near Pistorius was the first to arrive at Pistorius home

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-fifth-day/

???-

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/439cc...ried-and-prayed-next-to-Reeva's-body-20140306

???- The estate manager Mr Stander arrived at Mr Pistorius's house with his daughter.

???- Baba didn't enter Pistorius's house because Stander was standing at door. Lights were on in the house. Baba left to call the police and paramedics.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*3:28 a.m. Both Stander and Stipp are at Oscar's house; Stander calls ambulance from Stipp's phone

Other sources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...rrifying-screams/story-fni0xs63-1226845099657

I think that part of the confusion on this timeline is because we are getting some of our time stamps from Roux. It appears that the lawyers in SA can bluff or lie to a witness, correct?

 

[Really?]

argument ???

http://zeenews.india.com/sports/oth...oor-on-night-of-steenkamps-murder_758203.html

 

[Interested Bystander]

Does a lot of this remind you of anyone?

“Emotionally unstable [borderline] personality disorder is characterized by a definite tendency to act impulsively and without consideration of the consequences; the mood is unpredictable and capricious. There is a liability to outbursts of emotion and an incapacity to control the behavioural explosions. There is a tendency to quarrelsome behaviour and to conflicts with others, especially when impulsive acts are thwarted or censored. Two types may be distinguished: the impulsive type, characterized predominantly by emotional instability and lack of impulse control, and the borderline type, characterized in addition by disturbances in self-image, aims, and internal preferences, by chronic feelings of emptiness, by intense and unstable interpersonal relationships, and by a tendency to self-destructive behaviour, including suicide gestures and attempts.”

http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-pe05.html

 

[wishIknewmore]

Note: This is a work in progress... please add or make corrections...I could not locate a time for the entries marked with ???. I have added minor4th notes denoted with an asterisk


Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...1769/Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy.html

February 14, 2013

6 p.m.- Reeva entered the complex alone in her Mini Cooper.
Pistorius entered the complex shortly thereafter. He was on his phone.

1:56 a.m.- neighbor Estelle van der Merwe:
“I woke up the morning at 1:56am to sounds of someone talking loudly and fighting,’’ she told the court. “It lasted about an hour.’’

http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...rrifying-screams/story-fnh81gzi-1226845099657

*2:00 a.m. - Werwe heard what sounded like a woman's voice on one side of an argument

2:20 a.m.- Baba stated in court that at 2.20 am everything seemed normal during a security check.

3:00a.m-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-bloodcurdling-screams-followed-by-shots.html

*3:00 - 3:15 a.m. -Stipp was woken up by 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

*3:00 - 3:17 a.m. - Stipp reports he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

3:15a.m- Dr Stipp made a call at 3.15 am and spoke with Baba for 16 seconds. Stipp reported the shots and asked security to come and see where the shots were coming from.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*Burger and Johnson awoke to the sounds of loud screams they identified as coming from a female

*3:15- 3:16 a.m. - Burger and Johnson report they heard yelling "help, help, help"

3:16 a.m.-

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/79d46...,-witness-phone-calls-under-scrutiny-20140306

*3:17 a.m. – Stipp heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

*3:17 a.m. Burger and Johnson heard "3 or 4" sounds they believe to be gunshots

*After 3:17 a.m. - Werwe heard "loud crying" that she initially thought was a woman, but her husband identified the voice as Oscar Pistorius

????-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*3:20 a.m. - Oscar calls Netcare and reports that they advised him to take Reeva to the hospital and not wait for the ambulance

???- Baba spoke to Pistorius on the phone and Pistorius said, "Security, everything is fine".

3:24a.m.-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

???-- Johan Stipp, a doctor who lived near Pistorius was the first to arrive at Pistorius home

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-fifth-day/

???-

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/439cc...ried-and-prayed-next-to-Reeva's-body-20140306

???- The estate manager Mr Stander arrived at Mr Pistorius's house with his daughter.

???- Baba didn't enter Pistorius's house because Stander was standing at door. Lights were on in the house. Baba left to call the police and paramedics.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*3:28 a.m. Both Stander and Stipp are at Oscar's house; Stander calls ambulance from Stipp's phone

Other sources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...rrifying-screams/story-fni0xs63-1226845099657

I don't want to change the outline without known for sure if this is correct since its from a "blow by blow" account on CNN and not court doc. http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4?Page=7

"Johnson and Burger's cell phone records indicate that they called security at 3:17 a.m.
Roux points out that at 3:19 a.m. Pistorius called Mr. Stander for help, and that this was shortly after he'd broken down the door, which would mean the sounds the couple heard was from a cricket bat not a gun. "

Can someone verify if this time is right or wrong?

 

[kittychi]

argument ???

http://zeenews.india.com/sports/oth...oor-on-night-of-steenkamps-murder_758203.html

This report of trophies strewn and broken was floating about last year, but IIRC was never officially released by LE. About the same time there was also a report of "evidence of heavy drinking" by "investigators" which also has never been acknowledged by LE.

Either could be relevant, if true. I guess we shall see.

There were a lot of "unofficial" reports before OP's PR team got more control of media.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I don't want to change the outline without known for sure if this is correct since its from a "blow by blow" account on CNN and not court doc. http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4?Page=7

"Johnson and Burger's cell phone records indicate that they called security at 3:17 a.m.
Roux points out that at 3:19 a.m. Pistorius called Mr. Stander for help, and that this was shortly after he'd broken down the door, which would mean the sounds the couple heard was from a cricket bat not a gun. "

Can someone verify if this time is right or wrong?

I would like confirmation that the times were from Radio Signal controlled sources. Otherwise different methods of telephonic timing, ie land line or cell phone could differ. We are talking of a minute or two making a difference.

 

[shane13]

My understanding is that when Baba arrived , first Miss Stander went in the house and Mr Stander was at the door in front of Baba and immediately tried to send him away from the scene saying him to go to the gate and call the police and ambulance .Meanwhile MR Stipp came to house and he arranged the calls from the house as well. I don't see any confliction here so as to throw Baba's evidence away. Stander might have thought that it would be good for MR Stipp as a doctor to call the Netcare immediately as Baba was on his way to the gate .

He has a cell phone. He doesn't need to go to the gate to make calls.