Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[shane13]

This report of trophies strewn and broken was floating about last year, but IIRC was never officially released by LE. About the same time there was also a report of "evidence of heavy drinking" by "investigators" which also has never been acknowledged by LE.

Either could be relevant, if true. I guess we shall see.

There were a lot of "unofficial" reports before OP's PR team got more control of media.

There may or may not be truth in that.

Remember we were led to believe that Reeva had her head bashed in by the cricket bat. But I believe it has been estabished that all her hed wounds have been attributed to the bullet.

MSM only needs 2 sources to allow 'publishable truth' which may not jibe with more objective truth.

The original source for the alleged head bashing by the cricket bat was City Press in SA, and the editor said 2 polce suirces told him so. But they either were mistaken or lied.

 

[aa9511]

Even the state is not alleging that the cricket bat was first. Yes, to come up with that scenario it takes quite a lot of speculation and assumptions of things that are not in evidence and not even alleged.

Since we don't have a lot of evidence yet, it is also speculation to assume that the order was 1. gunshots, 2. cricket bat, as you are stating.

That is only taken as "given" because Oscar says so, and IMO Oscar has already been caught in lies.

JMO.

 

[aa9511]

I am fairly certain that the Judge will realize, based on the evidence, that Oscar is lying in his version of events. So far, that has been established, IMO, and the damage will continue through the trial, IMO.

Then the question obviously is, why would Oscar lie about events of that night?

So far in the trial, I'm thinking a Guilty verdict by the Judge.

JMO.

 

[Linda7NJ]

There are plenty of questions as to whether it was accidental or not..



Oscar was sorry he fired it, but it isnt established it was accidental. what makes you so sure it was?? I merely enquire.



he had to release the safety catch , thats just one thing that precludes it being an accident.. he knew there was a bullet in it, * darrin.. ' it's one up'..





where does accident over rule deliberate firing?

Edited because my post made no sense


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[aa9511]

It can not be an accident when it's repeated...one shot fired =accident. More than one=intentional.

Imo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Also, in this case it will be a Judge who decides. She already knows the law and knows what pre-meditated means in the law. So in this case, there won't be any confusion that laypeople such as myself or others might have about issue of pre-meditation.

 

[Zinn]

the order of arrival at the house is this..

STandar, and Mrs Standar, or Ms Standar

Baba by a whisker.. he actually arrives before Standar but is whizzed past by one STandar, at least, possibly both.

seconds later, enough time for Oscar to finish his walk down the stairs, because this is what Baba was confronted with, then Oscar lays her on the hallway tiles, then commences some sort of half arsed resuscitation procedure, then Stipp arrives to see Oscar with his fingers clenched between Reevas teeth, and his hand on her groin. Muttering and moaning.

Stipp then removes Oscars hands, and commences to ascertain life or death.

My understanding from the tweets of court reporters is that Baba testified he arrived a few minutes before the Standers. During this time, he initiated a call to O.P., was told everything was fine, didn't believe it and felt something was wrong, consulted another guard, asked O.P. to come downstairs, and received a call from OP who was crying and not speaking before hanging up on Baba. He then observed Stander park in the street and race to the house.

Unless the court reporter was mistaken, which is possible, Baba testified he was the first to arrive by a few minutes. And this was after he and another guard went to Stipp's house and were directed to the noise in the direction of OP's house.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

 

[shane13]

My understanding from the tweets of court reporters is that Baba testified he arrived a few minutes before the Standers. During this time, he initiated a call to O.P., was told everything was fine, didn't believe it and felt something was wrong, consulted another guard, asked O.P. to come downstairs, and received a call from OP who was crying and not speaking before hanging up on Baba. He then observed Stander park in the street and race to the house.

Unless the court reporter was mistaken, which is possible, Baba testified he was the first to arrive by a few minutes. And this was after he and another guard went to Stipp's house and were directed to the noise in the direction of OP's house.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

Excelent. Thanks

 

[kittychi]

Mr Roux is in no position to make up a whole case, a complicated case out of thin air..

no lawyer can, or would. . in consultation with Oscar, the defendant, and his employer, he has to present to the court the bones and flesh of the case the State has made against Oscar, ( Rouxs employer) and dispute it. .. Any and all theory's, disputation of evidence given, alternative scenarious, are ALL and ENTIRELY the responsibility of Oscar.. its Oscars case.. it isnt Rouxs' case , he is merely the presenter. Roux walks away and on to his next employer ( client) the moment this case ends.

He is, in the vernacular, Oscars barking dog.. other wise Oscar would be up there barking. Why hire a barking dog and do the barking yourself? no one does. He barks , as is his profession, a very worthy one, under Oscars instruction.

BBM1 & BBM2: As my husband who is a lawyer puts it,"marching orders."

.

 

[kittychi]

There may or may not be truth in that.

Remember we were led to believe that Reeva had her head bashed in by the cricket bat. But I believe it has been estabished that all her hed wounds have been attributed to the bullet.

MSM only needs 2 sources to allow 'publishable truth' which may not jibe with more objective truth.

The original source for the alleged head bashing by the cricket bat was City Press in SA, and the editor said 2 polce suirces told him so. But they either were mistaken or lied.

Shane...that's why I qualified my post four times:

"This report of trophies strewn and broken was floating about last year, but IIRC was never officially released by LE. About the same time there was also a report of "evidence of heavy drinking" by "investigators" which also has never been acknowledged by LE.

Either could be relevant, if true. I guess we shall see.

There were a lot of "unofficial" reports before OP's PR team got more control of media.

 

[Harmony 2]

I think that part of the confusion on this timeline is because we are getting some of our time stamps from Roux. It appears that the lawyers in SA can bluff or lie to a witness, correct?

I agree that the presentation by the lawyers is very confusing. I used the information because it was presented in court as testimony. :fence:

The cnn article stated Dr Stipp was the first at the scene. I do believe that Standar and company, then Baba were the first ones there followed by Stipp. It makes more logical sense.

I have an appointment and need to log off but will make corrections to the timeline when I return. :seeya:

 

[shane13]

Use of the Cricket Bat According to the State's Case

Can there be a bombshell to come in this regard?

I am not saying I believe there will be; but it's possible.

The state's point #12 "The fact that and the way in which OP broke down toilet door.'

My comments; maybe there is nothing to this. But if breaking the top open, all happened afer the shooting of Reeva, maybe then it should not be point in the state's discovery statement?

So is it possible that the stae will claim OP bashed the door before shooting Reeva?

I have thought of another possiiblity, The state would include this as just another part of OP wishing to alter evidence say, which would be part of a guilty mindset. I.e., that if he shot her innocently, he would not do?

After writing this now, it seems off, so I am thinking maybe there wil be a bombshell, and state will allege that OP bashed the door before shooting Reeva, or at least before the second volley of shots?

There may be problems either way.
And of course, I do not posess the forensics and ballistics.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/208363280/Pistorius-Documents

 

[Interested Bystander]

Probably hypothetical but if Roux was found to lie during the trial in order to protect OP's statement, would he be asked by the judge to withdraw from representing him or would one of his "Sorry, I was mistaken" excuses keep him on board.

 

[kittychi]

Use of the Cricket Bat According to the State's Case

Can there be a bombshell to come in this regard?

I am not saying I believe there will be; but it's possible.

The state's point #12 "The fact that and the way in which OP broke down toilet door.'

My comments; maybe there is nothing to this. But if breaking the top open, all happened afer the shooting of Reeva, maybe then it should not be point in the state's discovery statement?

So is it possible that the stae will claim OP bashed the door before shooting Reeva?

I have thought of another possiiblity, The state would include this as just another part of OP wishing to alter evidence say, which would be part of a guilty mindset. I.e., that if he shot her innocently, he would not do?

After writing this now, it seems off, so I am thinking maybe there wil be a bombshell, and state will allege that OP bashed the door before shooting Reeva, or at least before the second volley of shots?

There may be problems either way.
And of course, I do not posess the forensics and ballistics.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/208363280/Pistorius-Documents

BBM1: Shane, I don't think it seems off to consider this possibility.

BBM2: Someone posted pages ago (you?) that Oscar may have actually broken the door by "butting" it with the handle of the bat perpendicular to the door.

This would make a whole different banging sound than a bat swung horizontally, no? May resemble gun shots???

.

 

[shane13]

Shane...that's why I qualified my post four times:

"This report of trophies strewn and broken was floating about last year, but IIRC was never officially released by LE. About the same time there was also a report of "evidence of heavy drinking" by "investigators" which also has never been acknowledged by LE.

Either could be relevant, if true. I guess we shall see.

There were a lot of "unofficial" reports before OP's PR team got more control of media.

Thank you, Kitty.

I like your last line. Though I might argue in private about always having control of the media.

Hopeull we will soon have all the evidence in an honest fashion.
But I have alraady indicated i thrink this may not be the case (and for many reasons.)

One I gave was in regard to Sam Taylor--and how both sides made sue there was not a single meention of the name of Quinton van der Burgh, who was the one who SAm Taylor next dated and whose involvement, she implied led to severe rage from Oscar that she observed. And the state does not have him on the witness list even though he may be the strongest witness perhaps of being drectly threatened by OP in front of several eyewitnesses at the race track! [As I noted earlier the much weaker ness Mark Batchelor is--and Roux will impeach him severely as he has his own record of threats and assaults. So why would the state list him to testify??

So the state does not list one of the most damning witnesses to OP's jealousy, rage, threats etc.

IMO from the outset--the BH--much strangeness from the Pros.

 

[shane13]

BBM1: Shane, I don't think it seems off to consider this possibility.

BBM2: Someone posted pages ago (you?) that Oscar may have actually broken the door by "butting" it with the handle of the bat perpendicular to the door.

This would make a whole different banging sound than a bat swung horizontally, no? May resemble gun shots???

.

Thanks Kitty
Well I don't think however he might have struck the door with the bat, it would never sound like a gunshot due to factors I have cited several times--like the wave packets of the gun shots incorporating sonic booms.
But the perpendicular bat strikes do allow more rapid succession of bat strikes.

 

[shane13]

Probably hypothetical but if Roux was found to lie during the trial in order to protect OP's statement, would he be asked by the judge to withdraw from representing him or would one of his "Sorry, I was mistaken" excuses keep him on board.

Roux is highly connected...
Will never happen no matter what he does... JMOOC

I already heard Roux insult Nel and neither Nel or the Judge admonished him.
Nel allowed things from Roux against the witnesses for the first several days before he finally started to object to things he should have maybe in the first few minutes.

I have already pointed out how many times Roux is allowed to state with "certainty' matters of phsyics and physiology as 'facts" that are dead wrong--and almost always w.o. objection from Nel or the judge.

Indeed numerous untoward things happened at the BH--like Roux admitting that he has the
5th phone illegally taken from the crime scene! Someone committed a serious crime in this regard. Did you see that Judge or Nel wanting to get at the bottom of that? No. Indeed, the BH Judge warped things and blamed Botha for not finding out what is on a phone that he just found out about existed and that was illegally taken from the crime scene. And Botha gets admonished from that Judge and nothing against the DT for the crime of removing evidence from the scene.

I rest my case/assertion.

 

[kittychi]

It was Oscar screaming after Reeva had been shot. The subsequent set of bangs was not gunshots, it was cricket bat hitting the door. Oscar turned on the light and was walking in the bathroom. It could not have been Reeva screaming because she was already dead.

Are you stating these things as fact?

I'm stating this as what has been established by the evidence.

BBM1 / BBM2: Where is anything in Oscar's 1ST affidavit established by evidence?
.

 

[kittychi]

Roux is highly connected...
Will never happen no matter what he does... JMOOC

I already heard Roux insult Nel and neither Nel or the Judge admonished him.
Nel allowed things from Roux against the witnesses for the first several days before he finally started to object to things he should have maybe in the first few minutes.

I have alrady pointed out how many times Roux is allowed to state with "certainty' matters of phsyics and physiology as 'facts" that are dead wrong--and almost always w.o. objection from Nel or the judge.

Indeed numerous untoward things happened at the BH--like Roux admitting that he has the 5th phone illegally taken from the crime scene!Someone committed a serious crime in this regard. Did you see that Judge or Nel wanting to get at the bottom of that? No. Indeed, the BH Judge warped things and blamed Botha for not finding out what is on a phone that he just found out about existed and that was illegally taken from the crime scene. And Botha gets admonished from that Judge and nothing against the DT for the crime of removing evidence from the scene.

I rest my case/assertion.

Speaking of phones....did they ever get this 5th phone, was it the one that OP could not remember the password for the apps?

.

 

[shane13]

Speaking of phones....did they ever get this 5th phone, was it the one that OP could not remember the password for the apps?

.

No, from what I can gather, media and Pros are talking only about the 4th phone. trial needs to unfold, but so far everyone except a couple of us, have made out as if the 5th phone no longer exists.

I was wrong apparently: both DT and PT do know advanced physics--they have found a black hole and emplaced that phone in it.

 

[Really?]

BBM1 / BBM2: Where is anything in Oscar's 1ST affidavit established by evidence?
.

yes....that he shot Reeva.............