Trial Discussion Thread #32

[nastasya]

Coincidental, isn't it, when he couldn't hear the screams/didn't know if Reeva had screamed?

4 shots. Just enough to stop the screaming, no more or less, according to the State.

But for the defence, why just four? How did Oscar know the threat had been eliminated if he couldn't hear the screams and was aiming towards an area not necessarily consistent with death? Then again, he wasn't aiming and those closely clustered shots are another coincidence.

JMO


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

:goodpost:

 

[Carmelita]

LOL! I remember differently. Read more at the link:

Quote:
"He said she most likely sustained the head wound somewhere in front of the lid.

The heavy flow of blood on the floor came from the continual bleeding from her arm."

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/analyst-explains-reeva-s-blood-trail-1.1663753#.U1lZ2L-9LTo


Thank you for challenging me though! :smile:

That is the State witness's opinion. That doesn't make it a fact. It is speculation.

 

[BritsKate]

So, OP could have been screaming while shooting Reeva, or right after, or while breaking down the door, minutes after the shooting, or she could have been screaming while being shot? Or all of the above either in sequenxes or simultaneously?



Are these people who heard screaming willing to account for this many screams? I am trying to wrap my mind around this much screaming being heard by relatively few people. I genuinely can't grasp this.

I'll try to walk you through it, but the screams have become very muddied by the defence trying to explain away evidence. The screams lasted about 10-15 minutes. The final bangs and screaming (heard at 3:17) were either Oscar while he was breaking down the door (defence version) or Reeva while she was being shot (state version). The defence haven't fully explained, yet, the screaming heard before 3:17. In isolation, they've addressed some evidence while leaving holes in other places.

Here's a link to my earlier post about the screaming and how convoluted just that issue has become: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #31

Hope it helps to clarify.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Viper]

How many bullets would have been in the gun?

It has a capacity of 17 rounds plus 1 in the chamber, so 18 bullets in his Taurus PT92.

On a side note, I'm surprised that Taurus has not issued a statement to refute Dixon's claim that a firearm they manufactured misfired so many times straight out of the box!!! But then I haven't looked for it either, I'll be right back. :smile:

 

[PPKik]

I'll try to walk you through it, but the screams have become very muddied by the defence trying to explain away evidence. The screams lasted about 10-15 minutes. The final bangs and screaming (heard at 3:17) were either Oscar while he was breaking down the door (defence version) or Reeva while she was being shot (state version). The defence haven't fully explained, yet, the screaming heard before 3:17. In isolation, they've addressed some evidence while leaving holes in other places.

Here's a link to my earlier post about the screaming and how convoluted just that issue has become: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #31

Hope it helps to clarify.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Thank you so much BritsKate! Convoluted is an understatement. :banghead:

 

[TorisMom003]

LOL! I remember differently. Read more at the link:

Quote:
"He said she most likely sustained the head wound somewhere in front of the lid.

The heavy flow of blood on the floor came from the continual bleeding from her arm."

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/analyst-explains-reeva-s-blood-trail-1.1663753#.U1lZ2L-9LTo


Thank you for challenging me though! :smile:

I believe that Nest is forgetting the hip wound. There was definitely blood coming from that wound and since she was sitting (so to speak) on that wound with her head over the toilet, the I would say that the blood on the floor beside the magazine rack came from that hip wound. Also remember that Reeva's arm was up with her hand trying to protect her head. Her arm would fall more towards the toilet instead of down onto the floor.

MOO

 

[sleuth-d-]

Well we have heard there was at least "one up" or left in the chamber when the police retrieved the gun.

Otherwise personally I don't know.

and if the gun had even just one more bullet inside it, this proves he made a decision to stop shooting at four shots.

assuming he didn't hear anything and couldn't see inside the toilet*, did he ever check the door after the shooting - to confirm the person inside was no longer a threat?


*op version

 

[TorisMom003]

and if the gun had even just one more bullet inside it, this proves he made a decision to stop shooting at four shots.

assuming he didn't hear anything and couldn't see inside the toilet*, did he ever check the door after the shooting - to confirm the person inside was no longer a threat?


*op version

He also claimed that he was concerned with another intruder being on the ladder outside the bathroom window, yet he never looked out the window with his gun pointed at any possible intruder before he went back to the bedroom.

 

[Viper]

First you are quoting Wiki which is far from a reliable source , second from my reading all z88 Parabellums are at least semi-automatics, so capable of “semi-automatic” doesn’t make a lot of sense and “capable of a 3 round burst” doesn’t necessarily mean that it is an offered as a manufacturers option, but that it is manufactured in such a way that it could be modified have a 3 round burst.

You had a question. I tried in good faith to answer the question for you. And now you want to argue my answer?

Yes the other shooter's gun was available in a semi automatic version. But if you read the court decision the judge writing the opinion excuses the fact that the man fired multiple times because the variant of the gun that he was using was made to fire multiple times with a single pull of the trigger. Further, the judge specifically identified that variant as being "standard" for that gun to fire multiple rounds with a single trigger pull. But it seems that you prefer your prior theory that the shooter had altered his gun to be full automatic; and if you do prefer that then why ask a question on the forum?

 

[jimmy73]

It's in a north west direction if you were looking at the front of O.P's house.

I was interested in the local weather conditions on the night and how they might have affected the neighbours ability to hear the events that took place.

It seems as though wind speed was low (~3.5km/h) but from an easterly direction, which could have carried the sound further, albeit moderately. The high humidity (52%) and warm air temperature could have further increased the distance sound traveled that night, particularly when combined with local terrain and colder night air above the warm houses.

Does anyone know if this was referenced by the PT?

 

[TorisMom003]

There's another big problem with OP's version. During his testimony he claims that Reeva was not asleep when he woke up to move the fans and close the balcony doors and curtain. Now we know there was ladder outside under the balcony from earlier that day. OP claims that he thought the "intruder" moved the ladder to the bathroom window and climbed up it. Since Reeva was awake, she would have heard the metal ladder being moved. Reeva would also wake OP up to tell him what she heard so that they could do what they needed to do to stay safe. Moving a metal ladder, setting it against the house and climbing up metal rungs would be much louder than a window being opened in the bathroom.

OP painted himself into a corner when he changed his version from Reeva being asleep to Reeva speaking to him when he woke to ask him if he couldn't sleep. Perhaps OP should have thought about the noise the ladder would have made and added to his version that Reeva said something about hearing that noise. After all, Reeva is no longer alive to say that he is lying. But then again, the ladder was not against the house so perhaps he thought it better to not say that Reeva heard anything after all.

MOO

 

[Emz73]

Thanks for explaining your viewpoint.

Unfortunately this makes me question the (two?) ear witnesses to this screaming even more seriously.

How could they be right? Doesn't that cause one to question these ear witnesses completely?

Reeva was shot fatally three times. Fatally. How could she possibly have been screaming through all these fatal shots? The description of the intervals of the gunshots varies. Whatever it was in actuality, seconds or minutes, how much screaming could one do in the condition she was in?

Its not my viewpoint. The earwitnesses heard a women screaming until the last shot. The states expert said it was possible. He's an expert so I'm satisfied with that.

 

[haynat21]

I have actually been quite open minded so far and not seemed to come to any conclusion however reading another post about not being able to call netcare from reevas phone due to not knowing the password to me was a light bulb moment as anyone with an iphone knows or in fact most phones you can call the emergency number without entering a password??

 

[Viper]

That is the State witness's opinion. That doesn't make it a fact. It is speculation.

Well technically it is expert opinion that is now evidence. Why do you prefer to believe that the severed artery in Reeva's arm bled in to the toilet? I mean that is what you are saying right? Or are you saying that the one and only true blood pool, the one in the WC, was created by blood loss from the gunshot wound to Reeva's hip? Hmm, please let me know. TIA

 

[TorisMom003]

The hip shot and the arm shot were not immediately fatal shots, unlike the head shot. The hip and arm shots would cause Reeva to bleed out if not given medical treatment rather quickly. However, neither would cause her death immediately like the head wound did. It is very easy to see that Reeva would be screaming out in pain, horror, shock, etc after both the hip and arm shots.

MOO

 

[PPKik]

and if the gun had even just one more bullet inside it, this proves he made a decision to stop shooting at four shots.

assuming he didn't hear anything and couldn't see inside the toilet*, did he ever check the door after the shooting - to confirm the person inside was no longer a threat?


*op version

I am curious too, to know why he shot four rounds. We'll probably never know that either. To clarify one thing: I don't have a clue how many rounds he had left, but one round in the chamber would be where a round would go into a semi-automatic, if the there was still one round left to be fed into the chamber. That wouldn't have anything to do with how many rounds he had left to shoot in the magazine itself.

I found this site with some extraordinarily clear pictures of the various parts of a similar firearm for reference.

http://50ae.net/collection/pt92ar/

 

[sorrell skye]

Bear in mind too that the defence itself has conceded the screams by ever suggesting it was Oscar.

To repeat from my mega-post on those screams: It was Roux himself who suggested the screaming Michelle Burger heard during the shots were in fact Oscar screaming when he realised it was Reeva he'd killed. Oscar testified he was screaming and shouting while he was breaking the door down (in the State version these are the shots). Then, once through the door (or after the last shot): silence. Oscar testified he didn't see the point of screaming then.

So...I don't think this can go both ways. Either witnesses heard a woman or they heard Oscar screaming like a woman.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

BBM

Excellent points, Kate - as well as excellent recall.

As you have reminded us: when Nel asked OP why he didn't scream after he discovered it was Reeva in the toilet room and not an intruder, OP stated that there wouldn't have been any point in screaming at that time (paraphrasing).

This flies in the face of logic and how one would expect someone to react during a horrific moment if an innocent person had just discovered they had shot their beloved by mistake.

Nel's questions to OP during cross-examination are representative of how a reasonable person would react in similar situations.

IMO, OP's claims in his ever-evolving versions represent a poorly cobbled together tale in which he is eternally the victim of misfortune, other people's lies, and other people's mistakes.

The times I would have expected OP to wail & scream like he'd never done before:

1. After he pried the toilet door panels off to discover Reeva's bullet-riddled, bleeding body (OP stated there wouldn't have been any point in screaming then, even though this discovery confirmed his alleged fear that it was Reeva in the toilet)

2. After Dr. Stipp informed him there was nothing more that he (Stipp) could do (OP left Reeva on the floor of the foyer to make an unexplained trip upstairs)

3. After the paramedic confirmed that Reeva was, in fact, deceased (again, no screaming or wailing upon hearing this devastating news)

OP's claims of when he screamed are, IMO, entirely out of place in his narrative, and notably absent where they should be present.

On the other hand, the screaming that witnesses identified as those of a terrified woman fearing for her life are, IMO, exactly where they should be.

 

[liesbeth]

Apologies if this has been posted before, I'm still catching up.

See this doesn't bother me at all.

1) Who besides night owls like myself, is up at 2-3 am?
2) SA is 'dangerous' and OP and his neighbors have paid good money to live in some isolation both for exclusivity and security.
3) How many residents were also sleeping with their windows open? It was a warm muggy night and OP only had the windows open because the AC was broken. I would hazard most people were sleeping with their windows closed.
4) People have highly variable sleep patterns, I can and have slept through a tree crashing through my roof during a hurricane, only to notice it backing the car out of the driveway the next morning. My mother and sisters are exceptionally light sleepers and I was never able the sneak in late undetected in high school.
5) Sound can carry very far in flat, quiet, countryside and OP's bathroom window and possibly balcony doors were open.

In support of the above there is Pieter Baba's testimony on day 5. It confirms that most people on the estate were indeed sleeping with their windows and doors closed that night. And it also confirms that the Stipp's top sliding door was open: (BBM)

https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/09/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-5-part-2/

<modsnip>

 

[minor4th]

It has a capacity of 17 rounds plus 1 in the chamber, so 18 bullets in his Taurus PT92.

On a side note, I'm surprised that Taurus has not issued a statement to refute Dixon's claim that a firearm they manufactured misfired so many times straight out of the box!!! But then I haven't looked for it either, I'll be right back. :smile:

I kind of got the idea that Dixon really didn't know how to handle firearms - doubtful a Taurus was jamming (I think that is the word he used) right out of the box or otherwise.

Reading up on the Taurus Parabellum, it's a double action/single action trigger mechanism - this in some way might explain why one of the four shots was further away. It also kind of does away with two double taps because of the first hard trigger pull.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Marking my spot....