Trial Discussion Thread #35 - 14.05.08 Day 28

[Viper]

Interesting. So any old hollow point is referred to as a "black talon" there in SA and hollow points are illegal there in SA?

That seems to go overboard. Hollow points are very common here in the states.

Modern hollow point bullets are a available in SA, just not the now 20+ year old banned Black Talon that was made by Winchester and discontinued in 1993; the same applies for San Francisco. The black talon sinister name took on a life of its own two decades ago and that still lives on.

 

[katydid23]

I do.

The reporter who is possibly the only one who can be regarded as impartial didn't hear a single word.

The National Prosecuting Authority have rejected the claim and the matter's been put to bed.

It is visible on video, clearly, that he leaned in and said something to her. What do you think he said? Did he say something nice, and she lied about it?

 

[katydid23]

I'm afraid unless you can provide a source for your findings that these are commonly called Black Talon, I disagree entirely. Have a look on the gun forums - the South African's talk about 'Ranger' bullets the same as we do, and use the name 'Ranger'. You go in a shop to buy some hollow-points, you ask for the brand you require. If you want Ranger that's what you ask for. There is absolutely no confusion.

The technology hasn't changed, Winchester removed the Black Talon from sale and undertook a re-branding exercise due to bad press. I really don't know where your information has come from.

I've explained this before, but just to reiterate - Winchester's Ranger SXT line of ammunition is of the same basic design as Black Talon. If you are unlucky enough to get shot by a police officer in New York and many other states, the chances are that the bullet used will be a Ranger SXT or similar (hollow-point).

I hope we can put this to bed now and it doesn't drag on like our text message evidence saga did.

Then why did Dixon refer to them as Black Talons?

 

[G.bng]

It's all fascinating but is it relevant !

He had a chance to leave through the bedroom door but he chose to go and get his gun.
He then walked/ran toward the alleged intruder confronting the danger and becoming the aggressor.
He then told this aggressor to leave and shot them with 4 bullets ( 3 hitting) before allowing them to do so.

The rest is totally irrelevant.
AIMVHOOC

Could be "irrelevant" and could be not. I agree with what you say, and in a nice concise manner, and to all intents and purposes under SA law it should be as simple as that (well, you did miss out the difficult complication of whether or not OP knew it was Reeva and not a burglar and my jury is still in and out on that but to me CH appears more likely) but in my experience law is never as simple as it is when set out on paper and I seem to recall Masipa jotting quite a lot with W, and even asking him questions, so I can only presume she has not yet discarded it as irrelevant either.

 

[Carmelita]

I think it's more unfortunate that people can be prepared to take anything as gospel without any known facts.

Please remember that it isn't remotely probable that everything he says is a lie. It's impossible to live day to day like that.

If we take that logic one step further, then all OP needs to say is that he intentionally killed Reeva. That would be a lie of course

I think this deserves more than a thanks so I would like to give it it a, Hallelujah!

 

[Val1]

Hi Val!

Regarding the BIB, I can guess which poster said that, but that is not true. It's amazing what people try to get away with on this thread! Really amazing.

OP had a magazine with bullets in it. He had a round already in the chamber in order to actually shoot that first bullet. After that 1st one fired the explosion of it being fired and leaving the barrel forced the slide back and as the slide came forward it loaded another bullet from the magazine in to the chamber, ready to fire with a 2nd pull of the trigger. That continues until he either stops firing or runs out of bullets.

The one and only reason that there was a pause after the 1st bullet was fired is OP paused to assess the situation and reacquire his target, Reeva, before firing the 2nd bullet.

bbm - So is that why Nel confirmed the "one up" and cocked with OP, to make it clear that the only reason to pause could have been to adjust his aim? I had thought it was only to show intent, not that it would then allow uninterrupted firing. I still believe OP used the opening he'd made in the door to help determine where his target was, heck he even told the court he could see her through it, before he pulled the panels out to try and get at the key.

Sorry, I'm pretty clueless about how guns work(yes I've shot 22's in my youth and after killing the first live thing I aimed at(a poor wee bird on a telephone pole) never plan to use one again), other than I know the chances of getting shot in my own home greatly increase if there's one already here.... :canada:

 

[Gryffindor]

Then why did Dixon refer to them as Black Talons?

As did Nel, Mangena and Saayman.

 

[G.bng]

It's all fascinating but is it relevant !

He had a chance to leave through the bedroom door but he chose to go and get his gun.
He then walked/ran toward the alleged intruder confronting the danger and becoming the aggressor.
He then told this aggressor to leave and shot them with 4 bullets ( 3 hitting) before allowing them to do so.

The rest is totally irrelevant.
AIMVHOOC

BTW, I saw people referring to grammar police around the blog today or yesterday, is it that there are now thought police around here too ?

And what does AIMVHOOC mean?

 

[zoran]

Maybe the £6000 is what OP is paying the entire DT then. But Nel will not be earning anything like that kind of money because he's a state prosecutor, not a private attorney. With a client like OP though, no one could really begrudge Roux the money anyway.

The price of prestige.. Both Nel and M'lady are making a huge salary sacrifice to wear that badge

 

[Gryffindor]

I think this deserves more than a thanks so I would like to give it it a, Hallelujah!

BBM

Sisters! ;-)

 

[Hatfield]

bbm - So is that why Nel confirmed the "one up" and cocked with OP, to make it clear that the only reason to pause could have been to adjust his aim? I had thought it was only to show intent, not that it would then allow uninterrupted firing. I still believe OP used the opening he'd made in the door to help determine where his target was, heck he even told the court he could see her through it, before he pulled the panels out to try and get at the key.

Sorry, I'm pretty clueless about how guns work(yes I've shot 22's in my youth and after killing the first live thing I aimed at(a poor wee bird on a telephone pole) never plan to use one again), other than I know the chances of getting shot in my own home greatly increase if there's one already here.... :canada:

I would just like to offer an explanation for the pause which happens to me every single time I shoot my semi-automatic handgun.

This just may be me and the way I shoot however I tend to think others may do this as well.

When I have my semi-auto with a full clip and I get ready to shoot I will *advertiser censored* the hammer back manually and then manually move the slide (work the action) to put a round in the chamber.

Now at this point like Viper said there is no real reason that I would need to pause after I fire the first shot because the gun will auto-load the next round and the hammer will automatically be cocked back with the slide BUT.....what happens to me is I just naturally pause a little bit after that first shot to realize that everything worked as it should and the gun is ready for more firing. The 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc rounds I let rip at a much faster pace.

I seem to always have a natural slight pause after that first round though.

 

[Carmelita]

I don't know about misogyny, but I suspect that some of his supporters find him attractive. If he was as ugly as sin, it might be a different matter. I think we've seen this in plenty of other cases.

Again I haven't seen any Oscar supporters here. There are people who think that the state has not proven PM. That does not make them Oscar supporters.

But hypothetically if your premise were true and people were supporting Oscar because he is attractive then it would be logical that people so worried about seeking justice for Reeva might not be so certain that she was murdered in cold blood if she had been a sorry looking hag.

Turning a premise on it's head is sometimes a good way to see whether or not it passes the reasonable assertion test.

 

[Viper]

Snipped

The technology hasn't changed, Winchester removed the Black Talon from sale and undertook a re-branding exercise due to bad press. I really don't know where your information has come from.

BIB. That is incorrect. The attached link to a short 4 minute video clip will demonstrate why:

http://youtu.be/p6J3CpxnXJQ

 

[Carmelita]

BBM

Sisters! ;-)

Hallelujah!

 

[Carmelita]

I am wondering what Roux gets paid has to do with anything, other than Oscar's pocket book and Roux's retirement plans.

 

[DebinGA]

And what does AIMVHOOC mean?

Just a guess: a-something in my very humble opinion of course.

 

[Cherwell]

Again I haven't seen any Oscar supporters here. There are people who think that the state has not proven PM. That does not make them Oscar supporters.

But hypothetically if your premise were true and people were supporting Oscar because he is attractive then it would be logical that people so worried about seeking justice for Reeva might not be so certain that she was murdered in cold blood if she had been a sorry looking hag.

Turning a premise on it's head is sometimes a good way to see whether or not it passes the reasonable assertion test.

If you read back you will see that I never referred to anyone here as an "Oscar supporter".

I agree with you about people showing less concern for unattractive victims. That's perfectly true too. I'm afraid it's human nature.

 

[Hatfield]

Again I haven't seen any Oscar supporters here. There are people who think that the state has not proven PM. That does not make them Oscar supporters.

But hypothetically if your premise were true and people were supporting Oscar because he is attractive then it would be logical that people so worried about seeking justice for Reeva might not be so certain that she was murdered in cold blood if she had been a sorry looking hag.

Turning a premise on it's head is sometimes a good way to see whether or not it passes the reasonable assertion test.

I think there is a flaw in that analogy because the victim cannot be compared to the attacker. Maybe a better analogy would be if the attacker was an ugly person then would we have a tendency to think he is more guilty than if the attacker is handsome.

I dont know if there have been any studies along these lines but it is an interesting question.

If you take 100 random people and let them hear the exact same evidence against 2 alleged murderers and 1 is handsome and famous and the other is ugly nobody. Wonder what the poll results would show?

Hmmmmmm.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

Agreed.

I've been wondering about the fact that this trial has been televised. I understand Judge Masipa allowed it, more or less at the last minute.

I wonder what were her motivations in this decision?

I doubt OP was prepared for this. He is now on the world stage and, for the most part, being viewed very unfavourably.

Has this public transmission of the trial had any impact on proceedings? Is this the reason the defence has been scrambling and upgrading their evidence up to the last minute? Was it assumed because OP was the 'son of Africa' that he would walk without having to put up a fight?

I've been thinking about this and would love to hear opinions, if it's an interesting discussion topic.

I had put myself to bed and this popped into my head, sorry to jump off your post but it got me thinking.

I believe that his defense essentially bought OP's story. At the bail hearing they were very prepared and became very confident with that victory. From there the testing they did was just to bolster OP's story. Maybe they figured that discrediting the ear witnesses or convincing them they heard OP would be a piece of cake.

IMO the strategy was just to poke holes in the prosecution case and their star witness "golden boy" would take it from there. Once the trial started I think it became clear that maybe OP hadn't told the whole truth and that's when the defense went out and redid the voice tests, changed the double tap theory and started to question OP's version? When OP finally testified that's really when the wheels fell off and they needed to provide some sort of defense. This would explain why the defense experts/witnesses have been lack luster.

I do believe that OP/defense thought they would walk away from this either way privately or publically. Sorry to be so long winded :blushing:

 

[DebinGA]

Then why did Dixon refer to them as Black Talons?

And why didn't OP correct Nel, since he seemed to relish doing so?