Trial Discussion Thread #35 - 14.05.08 Day 28

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Agree. Why has Frank's presence at the house that night been omitted from the Trial?

Hypothetically, Frank could be used in an Appeal and Frank could say anything! I agree with your concern.

RBBM

South African courts may be totally different but appeals are usually based only on the information presented in the trial and legal rulings therein - arguing a confession shouldn't have been allowed in; improper exclusion of evidence; a change in venue was denied, etc. Appellate courts usually only review transcripts of the original trial. Rarely do they hear testimony, witness the presentation of evidence, or even hear opening statements and summation. In South Africa, there is no automatic right of appeal. Someone convicted may appeal a sentence, judgement, or both but first leave to appeal must be granted by a judge. They must determine there are grounds to pursue an appeal and that there is a reasonable prospect of an appeal being successful in order to grant leave.

Oscar admitted to killing Reeva, he owns that now. If he were going to go for a SODDI defence the time to have done so has long since passed (if that's what you meant). I don't see how introducing Frank in an appeal could possibly help him or how he even could legally, assuming he's convicted, but IANAL so I could well be wrong. :)
 
I concur. I also don't think this trial would ever have been televised. I believe it's only due to Oscar's involvement.

I don't believe anyone outside of SA would have known anything about Reeva if she had been killed by another boyfriend. And I think very few people would have paid a lot of attention to her death even in SA, "reality TV stars" are not famous people.

It doesn't make her life worth less than a famous person but it is IMO the reality of life.
 
Did defense state at all which of C or D missed? Or will Woolie be addressing that this morning?

Wollie already addressed every single bullet hole, which bullets hit Reeva from first to last, and Reeva's exact positions behind the door while it was happening.











Wollie could not figure any of it out, unfortunately. It was all inconclusive to poor Wollie. It does not look like OP got what he paid for from Wollie. Perhaps Wollie was not willing to go on national television in SA and throw away his credibility, the way Dixon did. Just a hunch...
 
Agree. Why has Frank's presence at the house that night been omitted from the Trial?

Hypothetically, Frank could be used in an Appeal and Frank could say anything! I agree with your concern.

I totally agree. Frank is like this huge elephant that suddenly pop out of nowhere. If the reports are true, I totally never knew there was a 3rd person in the house.
 
I don't believe anyone outside of SA would have known anything about Reeva if she had been killed by another boyfriend. And I think very few people would have paid a lot of attention to her death even in SA, "reality TV stars" are not famous people.

It doesn't make her life worth less than a famous person but it is IMO the reality of life.

It is known that Reeva was also a model, yes? Also one of the faces for Avon in SA. She was a "roaming presenter" for FashionTV in SA.

It ticks me off that what Reeva accomplished is being minimized. <modsnip>

Want to know what OP will be known for now? KILLING REEVA. Forget what he has done before on the track field, or what he overcame. HE screwed up the rest of his life, no matter what the verdict is, because HE KILLED Reeva.

MOO
 
That might work if they were both in the courtroom, however, one of them is dead and iirc the only image of her face(weeks ago now) that was shown is not exactly the most attractive, no matter how beautiful and engaging she may have been while alive. Perhaps for justice sake the PT should be allowed to have a lifelike image of her sitting with them...


IMO that would be silly and unrealistic. It was suggested that Oscar has supporters because he is attractive, I simply stated the other side of that statement which could be drawn, if "attractiveness" is the criteria for which people support or do not support people, then logically Reeva may have so many people concerned about the outcome of this case because she was attractive.
 
The price of prestige.. Both Nel and M'lady are making a huge salary sacrifice to wear that badge

Still not worth the target I'm sure is tattooed on their backs imo.
 
I totally agree. Frank is like this huge elephant that suddenly pop out of nowhere. If the reports are true, I totally never knew there was a 3rd person in the house.

This graphic of the neighbourhood was published on 25 Aug 2013 and has been posted here many times.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/162790733/What-did-Oscar-Pistorius’-neighbours-hear

"Oscar's house:
Frank Chiziweni was his gardener and lives on the property in a back room"


So Frank's existence is hardly a secret.
 
Social Worker, Yvette Van Schalkwyk: A Question of Professional Ethics

*In case anyone missed it, M'Lady was a social worker for years before she went to law school.
** I apologize in advance for anything I say in the following opinion that someone may take personally.
*** While I'm not always right, I ALWAYS have an opinion. Ha!


I know and have worked professionally with a large number of social workers in health care, schools, courts, etc., over the past 20 years. I have great respect for them and the work they do, especially those who engage in continual personal counseling as a pre-requisite for their jobs. Those who don't often struggle with boundary and codependency issues which leak into their work.

People in direct helping professions care. It's what they do, it's who they are, which is both the good news and the bad news. It's a wonderful thing to be a truly caring person, it brings amazing things to a world that sorely needs amazing things. At the same time, in order to care "carers" have to have something/someone to "care" about. As a result, they often project a presumption of "need" onto almost everyone in almost every situation. Sometimes it fits, sometimes it doesn't.

I believe Mrs. Van Schalkwyk's personal caring is the foundation of her work as a social worker, as well as the filter through which she perceives and interprets people and situations, in all areas of her life. Through that filter she interacted professionally with OP. Personally, she felt strongly enough about her perceptions to come forward on his behalf, believing that what she perceived about him was, objectively speaking, true. In fact, perceptions and feelings are highly subjective and that's where the waters get muddy. It's one thing to bring personal biases to one's job. It's another to come forward and testify in court under false pretenses.

That Yvette Van Schalkwyk came forward was, no doubt, manna from heaven for Roux. Obviously, in order for her personal testimony to be heard, he had to cast her in her professional role. (Had she come forward and offered to testify as someone who briefly knew OP and had personal feelings to share, I imagine he would have thanked her and sent her away.) In agreeing to testify in her professional role, I believe that she had a responsibility to strictly adhere to the bounds of what was in her written reports. She admitted to Nel, however, that none of it was. Thus, from a professional ethical point-of-view, she had no business being there. Yet, she was. Her overwhelming sense of "care" and her blurred sense of professional responsibility drove her forward.

The difficulty that many involved in direct helping professions struggle with is distinguishing the principle of "care-centered ethics" from "caring" within the boundaries set in the Codes of Ethics of their professions. Many I have known have often crossed boundaries and they're proud of it. They willingly admit that their personal "caring" trumps all else. They believe doing so is a noble and admirable quality. IMHO it's not. A great deal of damage can be done in the name of compassion. That's why Codes of Ethics were created by professions in the first place.

While well-meaning, in my opinion, Yvette Van Schalkwyk inadvertently became a role model for the worst stereotypes of those in direct helping professions. My assessment begins with her being "well-meaning" and goes downhill from there.

If Mrs. Van Schalkwyk came forward to Roux with the approval of her superiors, I seriously question their judgement and think they should be fired. If Mrs. Van Schalkwyk didn't get their approval, she needs to be fired - with the parting recommendation that she engage in regular counseling if she plans to stay in the profession.

Again, my apologies to anyone who may be offended by my opinion and/or how I worded it.

Thank you for this post ColonelMustard and well said IMO.

I agree with PatCee[/B ]on this matter and also with Viper's post no:786:
"... it was an act of desperation by the DT to actually put her on the stand, IMO. To think that the millions of dollars that Ozzie has paid to produce his defense has whithered down to a last minute shot in the dark by bringing this obvious #Pistorian in to court to say he felt sorry for himself after he murdered Reeva, its astonishing!"

In addition, the employing organisation has some responsibility here IMO. They should have provided this employee with accredited Clinical Supervision in such a high profile, emotive public trial - to assist her to distinguish professional/personal boundaries and remind her of the practice Code of Ethics.

It was asking too much of an inexperienced SW to support this alleged murderer, an ex-Olympian with high public notoriety in SA who had striven to overcome his disabilities which invokes emotional response in other people. It appears she couldn't 'contain' her personal emotions IMO.

Further, the South African Social Workers Association will have to look at this matter and the implications for social work employment and Supervision in South Africa in view of this employee's 'emotive knee jerk reactions' and interjection of her personal emotional views into a high-profile murder Trial when her role was to support, not provide a report. The SASWA would be responsible for the conduct of a SW re their Professional Code of Ethics and Practice Standards in this situation.

Its now possible that world wide Social Work organisations would be looking at what has happened here with a view to education, supervision, case assignment matching level of professional skills, managerial responsibility of SW's etc. My opinion only.
 
IMO that would be silly and unrealistic. It was suggested that Oscar has supporters because he is attractive, I simply stated the other side of that statement which could be drawn, if "attractiveness" is the criteria for which people support or do not support people, then logically Reeva may have so many people concerned about the outcome of this case because she was attractive.

Or it could simply be because she represents a very large percentage of the population that has been statistically murdered by their "loved ones". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't RS still the victim(the unarmed one who got shot and killed behind a closed door) in this case?
 
I had put myself to bed and this popped into my head, sorry to jump off your post but it got me thinking.

I believe that his defense essentially bought OP's story. At the bail hearing they were very prepared and became very confident with that victory. From there the testing they did was just to bolster OP's story. Maybe they figured that discrediting the ear witnesses or convincing them they heard OP would be a piece of cake.

IMO the strategy was just to poke holes in the prosecution case and their star witness "golden boy" would take it from there. Once the trial started I think it became clear that maybe OP hadn't told the whole truth and that's when the defense went out and redid the voice tests, changed the double tap theory and started to question OP's version? When OP finally testified that's really when the wheels fell off and they needed to provide some sort of defense. This would explain why the defense experts/witnesses have been lack luster.

I do believe that OP/defense thought they would walk away from this either way privately or publically. Sorry to be so long winded :blushing:

This week's defence witnesses have caused quite a bit of comment from within the legal fraternity. They feel the DT is in disarray and said normally your best witnesses come first, not the lacklustre ones we've seen so far which haven't advanced OP's case. Judge Greenland has also commented on this.
 
But if someone's best friend is shot and dies on a toilet floor, do they need to view it dispassionately? If they are not on the jury, and not on the witness stand, then why not allow them their emotional reactions?


No I think people are allowed their emotions and I have no problem with Reeva's family and friends hating Oscar from here to eternity. I have no problem with them being unable to view the case dispassionately. But they are not suitable judges of the situation.

I don't even have a problem with Gina's sister making an unsubstantiated claim after the prosecution didn't have the best day. I do have a problem with people deciding that Kim's words are gospel are indisputable and I do have a problem with there being "witnesses" to the words being spoken as the witnesses to "the words spoken" have been made up out of thin air.
 
I am not trying to be disparaging I promise. Because it is not a matter to be disparaging or mean about.

But I think I am catching a few signs of tiny cognitive problems with this witness. I suspect he is losing the thread of his own testimony at times and is reading everything from his notes. Nothing seems to be from memory.


But that's how expert witnesses with such long reports do it... i.e., using their notes as they can't be expected to learn it all off pat

It's one thing for expert witnesses to refer to their notes. Reading word for word is something else entirely.
 
"I'm a clinician - I deal with live patients."

"I'm not aware of post-mortem - it's outside of my field."

This is who the DT hired to rebut a forensic pathologist's testimony?!

And iirc she did not know the quantity of undigested food remaining in Reeva's stomach. When Nel told her 200 ml, she said, "That's a lot of food." Well, yeah.
 
Which shot did Woolie state missed and which for head? C as missing and D final head shot?
 
I think there is near unanimous consensus here that OP is self absorbed to the point of being a flat out narcissist, that he is incapable of taking responsibility for anything, that he is quick to anger, that he loves guns way way too much, that he is a lousy boyfriend and that he isn't and never was the person so many apparently admired.

But......he's not on trial for being an unlikable person, for which he should be grateful because his unlikability sure seems to rile up the "Gallery. "

You're right... he's not on trial for being an unlikable person, he's on trial for murder. And him being self absorbed, incapable of taking responsibility for anything, quick to anger, loves guns way too much, and a lousy boyfriend all aide in the state proving he intentionally murdered his girlfriend.
 
He said the lineup of witnesses so far is very telling (Judge Greenland has expressed exactly the same view) and gave the distinct impression that the DT is grasping at Straws.
RSBM
I've really enjoyed Judge Greenland the few times I've watched him. He seems to have been a major force behind televising the trial, mainly because there's no much distrust of the system in SA and he hoped a live-broadcast would change that attitude. Lately, I've gotten the impression he's disappointed in what people are seeing. He seemed this week to feel imo that m'lady wasn't running as tight a ship as she could, and the many people in jail awaiting trial as this one lumbers along are being done a disservice.
 
I missed the later parts of today's trial. Did I miss anything?

I noticed a thread popped up about whether PT has proved their case or not, so either people are judging prematurely or court is dismissed pending verdict?
 
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