Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[lithgow1]

Well I gave him a bare bones version but it did come through my lips.

I have never said I am with OP that is an over simplification of my viewpoint.

I am with the evidence.

If hating Oscar and believing he was a cold blooded killer despite exculpatory evidence would bring Reeva back I could see some fruit in the behavior. I just don't see how ignoring evidence does anything for Reeva.

I think it is horrific that she died at Oscars hands, I think it is horrific that she will not take another breath, I think it is a parents worst nightmare to bury their beloved child.

I don't think all that horror and sadness allows me to label Oscar as a cold blooded killer given I don't believe that it has of yet been proven that his version of that AM is not very close to the truth.

Just a couple of things Carmelita - what evidence is anyone ignoring? The majority of the evidence has not gone in OP's favour whether it's because of on the fly experts, shoddy preparation or OP's own misteps on the stand. Some say that Nel just played semantics but I would say that if OP's version was true all the trickiness in the world could not turn it into seeming like a lie. Seems to me that ignoring evidence is a more accurate description of those who bend over backwards to try and explain away every inconsistency and direct contradiction by other witnesses in order to cling to OP's version, which was incredibly dubious to begin with.

The other thing I wanted to address was your comment about 'hating Oscar'. I haven't seen any hate here. Lots of distrust and quite a bit of disgust but not anything as deep as hate. When you follow this trial closely it's quite justifiable to dislike a man so unable to admit to his failings and so unwilling to wear the consequences of what he has done. The arrogance and self-centredness are very unlikable traits and when they are oozing out of a man who has killed someone it doesn't make for feelings of sympathy from very many and understandably so. Know what I thought was one of Nel's best 'gotcha' moments: the whole issue of his in-court apology to the Steenkamps. As Nel said to him, did you even consider how they would feel, having no choice but to listen to that with the world's media watching them. A 'little thing' maybe but telling as once again, it was all about OP and the impression he wanted to give.

 

[BritsKate]

In response Carmelita and BritsKate,

Sorry for not quoting both of your lists but I just have one explanation that imo accounts for both lists.... "adrenalin junkie". Now how to fit that in with any narcissistic tendencies, anger management issues or cluster type personality traits, I'll leave up to you experts.

That's pretty easy. One of the key features of NPD is often risk-taking (or reckless behaviours) and lack of impulse control, especially if comorbid, so I think they rather fit hand in glove.

NPs often become involved in high-conflict disputes (including those divorce and custody related) because they are high risk-takers, disdainful of others and generally oblivious to the consequences of their own actions. They often feel like victims, when in fact their own behavior usually causes the events that now upset them. With these characteristics, compromise and respect for others are difficult or non-existent.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201005/dont-diss-the-narcissists

And, as a bonus, if anyone's interested - a well written 61 page study specific to the risk taking attitude and over-confidence associated with narcissists:
http://www.csulb.edu/~cwallis/382/certainty/overconfidence/Cambell.pdf

 

[ColonelMustard]

Like many others, I find it ironic that Reeva, who sought fame for other qualities became famous through violent death.

It's ironic and very sad that she's actually been lost in all of this. It's almost like her 15 minutes of fame has run out already. Yes, June is there but this is all about Oscar, whose fame only continues to escalate and obsess. For a hundred reasons, including this wild trial, his name will go down in infamy. Reeva will / has already become a single tiny footnote in the story. In future decades, people will look for her picture, think for a minute, "Wow she was gorgeous, " then go right back to the juicy stuff.

I know there's a guy at the trial who's writing a book about this saga. I'm certain that Reeva will have a much larger part in it than a mere footnote but who reads books anymore? More to the point, who's going to be reading books in the future? No young people I know - most of them are addicted to Angry Birds, Candy Crush, Flappy Bird, Snapchat and Instagram. (If you're thinking I missed Facebook, you're wrong. It's already de riguer. In my day, anyone over thirty was suspect. These days, it's anyone over twenty. Example: Last week, 4-year old niece asks 25-year old student of mine, "What apps did you play on your iPad when you were my age." Oops. No iPads a waaaay back then)

But I digress.

Of course, soon to follow, if not already in production is a cheesy and horrific TV moving starring Lindsay Lohan and Shia LeBouf.

And me, and likely all of us that are still here, will move on to the next captivating trial forum and then the next and the next and the next, as long a this site is still up and running.

Life ...and death... are so odd.

I almost forgot the point of this comment. It is that I don't think Oscar thinks about Reeva for ONE second any more OR her "death" (SHE made me do it, so what's all the fuss about about? Find me innocent and let me get back to my life, already.)

 

[Val1]

That's pretty easy. One of the key features of NPD is often risk-taking (or reckless behaviours) and lack of impulse control, especially if comorbid, so I think they rather fit hand in glove.



http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201005/dont-diss-the-narcissists

And, as a bonus, if anyone's interested - a well written 61 page study specific to the risk taking attitude and over-confidence associated with narcissists:
http://www.csulb.edu/~cwallis/382/certainty/overconfidence/Cambell.pdf

Thanks, I knew you'd come through and so far you've correctly assessed my brain-injured narcissistic hb, who loves to push buttons even at his own peril or disadvantage. Through years and years of therapy and continued repetition from his doctors he now knows why(when he remembers)... even though I'd been telling him since forever that the sense of control he felt from doing so was only in his own mind... lol.

 

[soozieqtips]

People with narcissistic personality disorder often display snobbish, disdainful, or patronizing attitudes. For example, an individual with this disorder may complain about a clumsy waiter’s “rudeness” or “stupidity”
or conclude a medical evaluation with a condescending evaluation of the physician.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder-symptoms/

Can you imagine OP criticising the psych team for being 'unsure of what they're supposed to be doing', just like he did with Dr Stipp?

 

[screecher]

As a professional athlete, one that represented SA in the ParaOlympics, wouldn't OP have had (along with the other athletes) some sort of counseling with a professional? And if he did, then why was any of his problems not discovered then?

Pretty sure every athlete at that level has a 'sports psychologist' at beck and call.

Or what was he called...oh yeah, an industrial psychologist?

 

[lithgow1]

Like many others, I find it ironic that Reeva, who sought fame for other qualities became famous through violent death.

It's ironic and very sad that she's actually been lost in all of this. It's almost like her 15 minutes of fame has run out already. Yes, June is there but this is all about Oscar, whose fame only continues to escalate and obsess. For a hundred reasons, including this wild trial, his name will go down in infamy. Reeva will / has already become a single tiny footnote in the story. In future decades, people will look for her picture, think for a minute, "Wow she was gorgeous, " then go right back to the juicy stuff.

I know there's a guy at the trial who's writing a book about this saga. I'm certain that Reeva will have a much larger part in it than a mere footnote but who reads books anymore? More to the point, who's going to be reading books in the future? No young people I know - most of them are addicted to Angry Birds, Candy Crush, Flappy Bird, Snapchat and Instagram. (If you're thinking I missed Facebook, you're wrong. It's already de riguer. In my day, anyone over thirty was suspect. These days, it's anyone over twenty. Example: Last week, 4-year old niece asks 25-year old student of mine, "What apps did you play on your iPad when you were my age." Oops. No iPads a waaaay back then)

But I digress.

Of course, soon to follow, if not already in production is a cheesy and horrific TV moving starring Lindsay Lohan and Shia LeBouf.

And me, and likely all of us that are still here, will move on to the next captivating trial forum and then the next and the next and the next, as long a this site is still up and running.

Life ...and death... are so odd.

I don't know if you said it all but you said some good stuff, especially about Reeva Steenkamp. Others may have noted my obsession with the CNN coverage of this and their approach re this is particularly galling. They ALWAYS concentrate in their post-proceedings wrap-ups on the Pistorius family, how they are coping, how yet again they rushed to comfort Oscar ad nauseum. Maybe at the start they paid some lip service to June Steenkamp but not any longer, at least not that I've seen. OP's family are out in force to support him but her family and friends are also there day in and day out and it's like they don't exist for all the attention they are given. Perhaps they prefer it that way and if so then good, but it does make me annoyed to see all this concentration on the Pistorius' while the dead woman's mother sits there stoically and listens over and over to how her daughter died as being there and going through that is the only thing left that she can do for her while meanwhile Curnow and Phelps are getting ready to file their next 'poor Oscar' report. A holes.

 

[ColonelMustard]

You know, as long as folks keep coming back here the next 30 days may fly by faster than I imagine. )

 

[Val1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
As a professional athlete, one that represented SA in the ParaOlympics, wouldn't OP have had (along with the other athletes) some sort of counseling with a professional? And if he did, then why was any of his problems not discovered then?

Pretty sure every athlete at that level has a 'sports psychologist' at beck and call.

Not to mention that I would be very surprised if OP didn't have to undergo some kind of testing/therapy to prepare him for the Olympics, as well as counseling to advise him about any spin off opportunities and privacy concerns resulting from a win.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Ahhh. If that is so, methinks he will resent that schedule, very, very much. And will let it be known.

Oscar---> :curses:

And if one was malingering, that would be a fairly taxing schedule of performance.

I wonder how often OP will be asked by a psychiatrist, "How do you sleep at night?"

Magdalyn, this is SO good that I couldn't just give you a push button thanks. I completely missed ths until someone else was commenting on it. VERY clever!! ;o)

 

[ColonelMustard]

I want to go on record to state that I find the little multi-colored jumpy cartoon things endlessly entertaining. They're really funny, often make me smile, and completely fit the comment they are selected for. Some, in their own simple way are actually quite complex. One of them here has a little dark cloud that forms around it . Ha! ;o)

 

[BritsKate]

If OP does truly have PTSD, chances are he can remember every single detail of what happened and it plays over and over and over like a continuous video loop. If he is found to have PTSD, then any of his statements where he says he can't remember, are more than likely falsehoods. The majority of those who have PTSD can recall events like they were yesterday, even decades later. JMV

And I have to add, lest I forget, PTSD most certainly can occur in conjunction with a cluster B personality disorder. Most commonly borderline.

Though ironically, the rate of C-PTSD (and other anxiety disorders) is higher among those who are in a relationship/live with someone diagnosed with a cluster B. Little wonder really as they're living in a pretty much constant state of high-conflict.

JMO

 

[Ranchgirl]

I don't know if you said it all but you said some good stuff, especially about Reeva Steenkamp. Others may have noted my obsession with the CNN coverage of this and their approach re this is particularly galling. They ALWAYS concentrate in their post-proceedings wrap-ups on the Pistorius family, how they are coping, how yet again they rushed to comfort Oscar ad nauseum. Maybe at the start they paid some lip service to June Steenkamp but not any longer, at least not that I've seen. OP's family are out in force to support him but her family and friends are also there day in and day out and it's like they don't exist for all the attention they are given. Perhaps they prefer it that way and if so then good, but it does make me annoyed to see all this concentration on the Pistorius' while the dead woman's mother sits there stoically and listens over and over to how her daughter died as being there and going through that is the only thing left that she can do for her while meanwhile Curnow and Phelps are getting ready to file their next 'poor Oscar' report. A holes.

It seems the victim is always pushed to the side? How many trials have we watched where the victim is ignored or BLAMED for their own murder? Really tired of this whole approach. JMO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Cherwell]

I think OP definitely has PTSD. Prison Terror Stress Disorder

 

[ColonelMustard]

RBBM

To that end, every single South African legal expert I've read or listened to since this whole issue of evaluation came up have said the same - Roux did not, could not, have seen this coming. He was hoping to have Oscar 'ill but not too ill' to bolster his defence and simply overplayed his hand. This evaluation, unless they know unequivocally what the outcome will be, puts their entire strategy in jeopardy. If they knew an evaluation would be in favour of their client, there was no reason to so strongly object to it.

I am not an attorney (though obviously the law is a passion) and as such will quite gladly defer to the legal experts much more familiar with the South African criminal justice system. I think Roux is a very good attorney (with a bad case and a worse client) but I don't believe he is clairvoyant and if he were, I don't think he'd gamble on this. It's just too risky.

MOO

So, BK, if I may be so bold, why is it that you're not an attorney? Is the profession of law in your future at all?

 

[MsMarple]

Hmmm… I had to run into work for a short bit. I talked with an attorney friend of mine (malpractice not a criminal attorney) and gave him a condensed version and we both came to the conclusion that Roux is crazy like a fox in the hen house. There is simply no way Roux did not know that Nel would request a state assessment, I think the referral may have been a surprise but the result is what Roux wanted, Oscar’s capacity is now in play due to the state’s request. Instead of the Defense bringing up Oscar’s mental health and the possibility of incapacity and the prosecution arguing against it, the prosecution has actually put the possibility of it on the table.

My friend said that an attorney goes to trial but a master plays a game of chess. Roux is playing chess and the first witnesses were pawns.

Oscar is emotionally unstable, even the good judge is on the record as saying that Oscar has been “emotional throughout” the defense witnesses have been odd, Roux never brought up diminished capacity but Nel has now laid it right in his lap. Oscar’s diagnosis and behavior give credence to his putative self-defense version and it will now likely be enhanced by an independent panel of experts. I guess there is some chance that the panel will declare Oscar of stable mind, and not afflicted with any compromising mental disorder but I can’t imagine that will be the case.

As to malingering, here in the US there is a long test to see if you are malingering (I want to say it has over 250 questions but I might be off on that) I imagine SA has a similar test, coupled with interviews, past history and observation, I think an accurate assessment can be made about Oscar’s mental state now and during the morning of February 14th.

Also I still think that Oscar’s status as SA Golden Boy has farther reaching ramifications than some of us would like to believe. As does the power and wealth of the Pistorius family. I’m sure that the powers that be would much rather see the Golden Boy acquitted or deemed incapacitated at the time of the killing. I know Judge Masipa has a very good track record but I was quite surprised by her saying"We can't punish him twice" and I do think that could have legal repercussions.

My thought on what could happen, not that I think it should happen or would be right for it to happen but I believe it is a possibility.

Oscar’s life story is sensational enough; he is a double amputee who ran in the able bodied Olympics. Then he tragically kills his beautiful girlfriend.

Now for the next chapter, he over comes the debilitating mental disorder that made him have such an unreasonable response to a noise in a bathroom , he overcomes the grief of having tragically killed Reeva, and he emerges as a champion of the disabled both physically and mentally as he puts his life back together.

Stranger things have happened.

Successful chess endgame tactics and strategies depend mightily on the number of pawns remaining. By sacrificing his queen (OP's mental health) Roux must now ensure he has enough pieces left on the board by trial's end to protect his King (OP's freedom).

Carmelita, my comments made above are general ones and not personally directed at you or your friend – I just couldn't resist the analogy, lol!

I'm not convinced Roux purposefully maneuvered the trial into this direction since it opens the possibility of OP being institutionalized for years. Plus, If the evaluators find nothing compelling enough to support his claims of terror then the implication is that he outright lied.

As to whether or not OP remains the Golden Boy, I'm curious to see how that ends. OJ went on to enjoy life pretty well until he landed in a Las Vegas jail, so who knows....

MOO

 

[BritsKate]

I don't know if all of you knew about this...maybe it's because I have to (because this is a case I've attached to) - but I just don't believe Reeva will simply be a footnote.

One of Reeva Steenkamp's dreams will become a reality next year, as a care centre for women and children affected by domestic violence will be opened in her name. The centre, which will be opened by her mother June Steenkamp, will be located in her home town of Port Elizabeth. The model and paralegal, who was shot dead by her boyfriend Paralympian Oscar Pistorius in February 2013, had a passion for working with women and children who were victims of abuse.

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...by-domestic-abuse-in-her-honour-30256239.html

 

[Magdalyn]

If those appointed to evaluate Oscar come back with a mental health defect that they say could very well have compromised Oscars ability to act in a reasonable fashion on that AM coupled with his physical deformity you bring the defense much closer to an “extreme situation” that the judge can use to determine culpability.

Snipped for focus:

You've made my point. If these psychiatrists can find a mental health defect that was present on the 13th/14th that is so profound it would mitigate OP's culpability, why didn't Roux request a section 78 on his client's behalf a year ago? Why argue against its necessity yesterday, and the day before? Because he's playing chess?

BTW, Nel didn't make this central. Nel followed the law after the witness testified that Oscar suffers from a psychiatric illness, and is a danger to society. The judge obviously agreed.

Do you really think it'd be proper justice and responsible consideration for the safety of society if this possible psychiatric illness and danger to society was some 'footnote' on the judges ledger?

If OP has a serious mental illness, it NEEDS to be diagnosed, out there with all the other considerations, not a footnote. Roux should have seen to OP receiving that diagnosis long before now, if one exists, if not only for the mitigating factors, but for OPs safety and the safety of others.

 

[katydid23]

I want to go on record to state that I find the little multi-colored jumpy cartoon things endlessly entertaining. They're really funny, often make me smile, and completely fit the comment they are selected for. Some, in their own simple way are actually quite complex. One of them here has a little dark cloud that forms around it . Ha! ;o)

Simply type in the words 'stormingmad' within the colons, : : and

:stormingmad:

 

[BritsKate]

So, BK, if I may be so bold, why is it that you're not an attorney? Is the profession of law in your future at all?

Why, Colonel, I think you have me blushing. :blushing: Unfortunately, it just wasn't to be. My masters degree is from the School of Hard Knocks, if you will.

For the foreseeable future, I'm focused on family life. My husband is disabled so he's pretty reliant on me. If all else fails, I do have it on my to do list for my next lifetime though.

Thank you for asking.