Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[lithgow1]

It seems the victim is always pushed to the side? How many trials have we watched where the victim is ignored or BLAMED for their own murder? Really tired of this whole approach. JMO


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Yes, it's a nasty trend. Did you ever read any of Dominick Dunne's columns in Vanity Fair about OJ or the Menendez brothers or Phil Spector? He was great and very much a victim's advocate which stemmed from his daughter being murdered by a jealous ex and then getting a slap on the wrist type sentence. I think someone mentioned once on here that he would have been right into this trial as it had many of the elements that interested him - fame, wealth, beauty etc. He was into all those things but he never forgot or ignored the 'little people' caught up in those high profile trials. I can just picture him right next to June Steenkamp - I've no doubt that's the side of the courtroom he would have sat on.

 

[Greater Than]

Without intention or malice, by using the term "punishment" within the context of a psychiatric / mental health evaluation, M'Lady did a huge disservice to the the global cause of normalizing mental illness and removing its stigma.

This was especially damaging because the whole world was watching, many of whom struggle and suffer with mental illness and shame, themselves, and/or have friends or family members who do.

In some way, perhaps by her tone or gentle facial expression, I felt her comment to OP came from a place of compassion. Yet, as I've said before, a great deal of damage can be done in the name of compassion.

I disagree. The psych evaluation is involuntary, thus will be considered "punishment" to OP. She was not speaking of mental illness in the global sense, she was referring specifically to this case, to this defendant, and to the circumstances in which she granted the application.

 

[DebinGA]

She also "experienced him" first-hand.

When Nel had to stop during OP's testimony and was ask him whether he was too tired to go on, M'Lady inquired, herself. She asked OP the same question and he rambled off in another direction for awhile (as he is wont to do). She stopped him. "Mr. Pistorius, you haven't answered the question. You must answer the question."

IIRC the judge asked OP specifically whether he was "making these mistakes" because he was tired, and he answered, "No, m'lady."

 

[minor4th]

IMO if he is an outpatient, there is more a danger that he could commit suicide or do a runner now.

I kind of think he would have done that before trial, if he was going to.

 

[lithgow1]

An interesting though sobering broader context article that I don't think's been posted yet.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/photos...south-africa-s-language-of-violence-1.2642278

 

[katydid23]

We are going to have to do something, to keep this Pistorius thread alive. Maybe we can go back through the various testimonies and highlight interesting finds.

 

[DebinGA]

Can you imagine OP criticising the psych team for being 'unsure of what they're supposed to be doing', just like he did with Dr Stipp?

~rsbm~
After hearing about his arrogant mistreatment of the police officer who'd pulled DF's car over for speeding on "I'll shoot through the sunroof" night, I think OP, at least around the time he killed Reeva, felt no need at all to control what he said to whomever he encountered. He showed no awareness of others' feelings, much less cared about them.

 

[Ranchgirl]

An interesting though sobering broader context article that I don't think's been posted yet.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/photos...south-africa-s-language-of-violence-1.2642278

Wow! More private security guards than police in SA. What a statement. Watching this trial has been an education for me about not only a different trial/justice system, but also a way of thinking about personal security.


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[AlwaysShocked]

Something that puzzled me is that Dr. Vorster stated that the GAD diagnosis came as news to both Oscar and his family members, correct? Is not that one woman who sits alongside his family in court and during breaks strokes OP's face supposed to be his psychologist?

How could he have a psychologist right there who was so unaware that she would not have recognized an anxiety disorder? Or was OP supposed to be "keeping it hidden" from his psychologist?

 

[MsMarple]

I want to go on record to state that I find the little multi-colored jumpy cartoon things endlessly entertaining. They're really funny, often make me smile, and completely fit the comment they are selected for. Some, in their own simple way are actually quite complex. One of them here has a little dark cloud that forms around it . Ha! ;o)

Simply type in the words 'stormingmad' within the colons, : : and

:stormingmad:

My favorite is fftobed: - it's sooo cute! But I'm lovin' little storm dude. Thanks!

"I saw no point in screaming" :stormingmad:
"If only Reeva had spoken to me" :stormingmad:
"How can you sleep at night?" :stormingmad:

 

[Greater Than]

So after all the anticipation I fell asleep before Masipa gave her ruling.

I've now listened and her decision and reasoning are very sound.

Interesting that she wants OP to be observed as an outpatient. I bet that pisses Nel off - I do think he was making this application in the hopes of "punishing" OP by having him confined involuntarily.

Umm, no. He is an officer of the court. He submitted the application because evidence on OP's behalf was brought forth which raised concerns regarding its relation to his mental state at the time of the offense. It was to ensure that OP receives a fair trial, not in the hope of "punishing" him with a 30 day inpatient evaluation.

I personally would like to see him "punished" with an evaluation at an impatient facility because he arrogantly dismissed the whole idea as a "joke," but I am confident that Nel's goal is simply to ensure the best opportunity for justice.

 

[alioop]

The State will be investigating the options of how the assessment for OP can be done. My bet is that Nel will give the Judge information that likely includes documentation from the psychiatric institution, stating that the evaluation needs to be done as an inpatient. If this is the normal process and it appears that it is from all the SA psych commentators I have read and seen, I cannot see the Judge diverting from the normal process.

She has been at pains to ensure the trial has been run fairly and properly, no doubt partly to avoid grounds for appeal. Also the only psychiatric evidence on OP's state of mind she has heard says that he is dangerous and that was from his witness. She must also realise that he has some sort of mental disorder currently as she heard him testify and that raises all sorts of questions other than is he just lying. She has seen his distress and physical symptoms when he has listened to other witnesses. She also knows he seems unable to accept responsibility for anything that he doesn't want to no matter how minor it is the grand scheme of the charges against him. She knows that she is not equipped to understand his mental health and that he needs proper serious evaluation.

I think she has a number of responsibilities at this point. To get him properly assessed, to ensure his safety and the safety of others. It is not rocket science to realise that if he does suffer from GAD or any other mental disorder, that it will be further triggered by the stress of her order for assessment. I suspect she may be worried now that she didn't have him taken into custody yesterday. I don't think she will make the same mistake on Tuesday. Hopefully Nel will be able to tell her that he has made arrangements for OP to be admitted as an inpatient immediately.

If she does allow him to remain on bail either while waiting to be admitted as an inpatient or if she allows him to be an outpatient, I expect Nel will ask for strict bail conditions to be imposed. Given the poor state of his defence and the almost certainty that he will be convicted and jailed, he is a big flight risk, way more so than prior to his trial commencing.

 

[anagrammy]

To me it seems it would be viewed that his term in a mental hospital would be deemed his punishment. I agree it could be for a long term but you can imagine OP will be on his best behaviour and "cured" quickly. I just cannot see the law trying him again. It would be tantamount to saying we are going to try you again for murder even though we know you were mentally unwell at the time. I just cannot see it happening.

How insane is insane? How insane would he have to be to get that diagnosis. Are there levels of insanity? I think it was pretty insane to have killed Reeva the way he did but I don't view him as insane as if he were a psychopath but how will the professionals adjudicate?

What also troubles me is if Vorster (a well known and well respected psychiatrist) feels that his condition may have precipitated the murder, then all the psychiatrists will tend to agree and he will not be convicted. I am not too sure Nel will be happy about that. I think he brought this up to prove that OP doesn't have a problem so the book could be thrown at him.

IMO he is not truly mentally sick and knew what he was doing and I want to see him receive a proper punishment but I think that mental illness carries great weight in these cases and if 3 or 4 more psychiatrists agree the diagnosis he could spend a number of years in a psychiatric hospital. I expect Uncle Pistorius will build a new unit for him, somewhat resembling a hotel.

One other alternative is that he is considered to have a marginal condition and it gets him a sentence reduction to CH.

At the moment I see Murder 6 won't figure, Murder 5 might, CH a good possibility but with a relatively short term, say 5 years unless the gun crimes bump it up. I HOPE I AM TOTALLY WRONG!

Vorster said his GAD would not affect his perception of right and wrong, but it would affect his ability to act in accordance with his values.

Now flash back to the beginning of the trial when what was being discussed ad nauseum was whether or not a normal person would have acted as OP did. I thought at the time that the accused was behaving consistent with Oscar-world and I wondered if the judge would take into consideration his irritability and distorted view of himself as deserving of more respect than the world offers him.

It appears that what we jokingly refered to Oscar-speak has been elevated to a mental defect.

It occurs to me that Roux would NEVER have gotten permission from Oscar to bring up this defense because he could never convince Oscar "everything's fine" Pistorius that he was going down for CH as the minimum and possibly murder 1.

Maybe he tells Roux that he would rather go to prison than be thought to be mentally defective. What else could Roux do but turn him over to a psychiatrist and hope for the best? Certainly he can see by now from working with OP that he is not a reasonable person. How else to explain OP's terrible job on the witness stand? He refused to be a member of the defense team under Roux's leadership.

Now Roux's job is to fight so that his client should not be held to the reasonable person standard. He had no choice but to try to save him in spite of himself. He truly is his own worst enemy because his grandiosity will get him convicted.

I don't think Roux thought it would be a 30 day evaluation, more likely he thought the anxiety diagnosis would support the overly-fearful OP being so completely careless as to shoot to kill without knowing where his partner was.

It backfired, but really not a bad thing for OP compared to what a conviction would mean. Even if he were deemed to be a criminally insane person, he will fare better and have a chance at an earlier release than he would with a criminal sentence in an overcrowded SA prison.

My 2 cents...

 

[atthelake]

Simply type in the words 'stormingmad' within the colons, : : and

:stormingmad:

Yet note that Steely gets residuals from each posting of it :floorlaugh:

:loveyou: Steely...who is not on this thread but is :lurk: somewhere on WS I'm sure at this moment

 

[ColonelMustard]

Whether M'Lady has leanings one way and then the other and back again throughout the trial as she /we tries to make sense of this is the only thing that makes sense. Her integrity and professionalism allow her to keep her thoughts private, although I wouldn't doubt that she and the assessors discuss things as the trial moves long, just to clarify things for themselves.

Do I think she can keep an open mind and temporarily suspend her disbelief, at times, in order to be fair? Yes. Do I think she makes mistakes and is fallible. Of course.

What's missing from this discussion is the most blatantly obvious.

M'Lady is a human being; They're all human beings - and so are we. None of us are "human doings."

Do I think that Roux and Nel have some "innocent" professional rivalry? Yes AND I think these two are best at their jobs when they're focused and engaged in intellectual brinkmanship. 100%. It makes them BETTER lawyers, not worse. I am going to be generalizing broadly about males, here, but if you don't understand that, you don't understand men. Period.

Do I think Nel is a little flirty with M'Lady at times, and vice versa. Yes. Do I think they can't do their jobs because of it. No. Is it possible that defense attorneys can, in some case, absolutely despise their clients but also do a great job for them. Yes.

Do I think there's a thin layer of "something" between Nel and OP. Absolutely and it drives Nel to do even better. Men, in general, thrive on competition, even the friendly kind. With OP, that's not what's going on.

Articles about Nel suggest that he's a black and white thinker. There's right and wrong and a bright line between them. If Nel has "something" between he and Oscar, it's on REEVA'S behalf. Nel doesn't care about a 2-bit lying punk. What he cares about a 2-bit lying punk who senselessly blew the head off a beautiful, innocent talented young woman whom he didn't care about then, whom he doesn't care about now, and isn't "man enough" (adult enough) to stand up and take full responsibility for it. AND who thinks he should just walk away from it all or get a light sentence to be served at Camp Cupcake.

Do you think that Nel, on behalf of REEVA and JUNE + DAD and family and friends, doesn't want to do everything in his power to bring this pompous entitled sniveling ninny down 1000 pegs to a place where he might possibly begin to understand humility and face what he did? Nel does.

To me, that's PART of his job and I personally hope, and think that he is calling in every chit (favors) he's earned over the last twenty years from people to make d#mn sure that OP gets a nice clean soft INpatient bed for the next 30 days. You bet. And if I owed him a chit or two myself, I'd be right in there helping him all I could. Somebody has to be the adult here. Somebody has to put their foot down and that someone is Nel.

OP got bail, got to travel, race, eat, drink, make love, be loved, and live among his loving family as all this is going on and it's legal. But there's a huge difference between law and justice. Often law aligns with justice. Often it does not. Like Roux and M'Lady, Nel works within the law for justice and I respect him for it. But the buck stops with him and I respect that even more.

OP is the antithesis of every fiber of Nels being. I think that may be a large part of the reason I like Nel so much. I share those values. Roux IS doing his job but I wouldn't be able to defend OP for any amount of money. Yes, he has a right to an excellent defense. But if I personally represented him, I couldn't live with myself. At most, I'd feel culpable, at least I'd feel like I was co-signing his bu!!sh#t.

Thank goodness we are all unique, as there are many roles to fill in this world.
But if you imagine that those three people and everyone else involved in this in a professional capacity don't have personal biases, opinions, and feelings about things before this trial, throughout the process, and after it's over, in this instance, I think you're being willfully blind to basic reality.

... and... i love you anyway. )

ps. If it's anything like my experience as an inpatient, OP will be allowed no phone, no computer ( no net), no visitors, no nothing in Sterkfontein - at least for the first few weeks.

pps. I'm not always right but I always have an opinion. This has been mine.

 

[Viper]

I kind of think he would have done that before trial, if he was going to.

Pfft. This guy could off himself or anyone that he lays blame upon at any moment. Hope Uncle Arnold has all of his guns locked away and an armed guard at OPs bedroom door. Did OP really say that he wakes up to nightmares of smelling Reeva's blood and then hides in the cabinets of his room? I would not spend two seconds in that house much less sleep there.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"I don't think Roux thought it would be a 30 day evaluation, more likely he thought the anxiety diagnosis would support the overly-fearful OP being so completely careless as to shoot to kill without knowing where his partner was."

The above is the one area in all of this that still bothers me. I just cannot think that Roux would have had no idea that an evaluation might well be the outcome of introducing psychiatric testimony about OP's state of mind. I mean, Roux has been around these courts for a long, long time.

Perhaps I can more believe it was a gamble that Roux felt he had to take despite the known risk. What did Nels call it? Roux's "drop back position" or something like that?

As someone else posted, Roux sure was quick on the uptake in arguing against it.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Yea, but this was OP this morning. Childish, pensive, unshaven.

ok, that's it;I give up. Exactly how do you do the thumbnail thing?

 

[alioop]

Pfft. This guy could off himself or anyone that he lays blame upon at any moment. Hope Uncle Arnold has all of his guns locked away and an armed guard at OPs bedroom door. Did OP really say that he wakes up to nightmares of smelling Reeva's blood and then hides in the cabinets of his room? I would not spend two seconds in that house much less sleep there.

I agree. I think Uncle Arnold is very relieved OP is to be properly evaluated. I bet he is also hoping as an inpatient. We are seeing OP controlling most of his emotions in court, but I bet Uncle Arnold is seeing his raging anger every night.

 

[atthelake]

Wow! More private security guards than police in SA. What a statement. Watching this trial has been an education for me about not only a different trial/justice system, but also a way of thinking about personal security.


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Yes, that's to be expected that private sector has many businesses and residential areas not just in SA...but also in USA. Perhaps you live in another country?

"Private security is one of the fastest growing occupations in the U.S. There are approximately 1.1 million private security officers working in the United States-- far outnumbering American police officers"http://www.standforsecurity.org/a/our-industry.php