Trial Discussion Thread #49 - 14.08.7, Day 39 ~final arguments~

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I was disappointed in Nel's closing arguments. I had expected much more. I expected a concise storyline/timeline of events, and a much more polished presentation to the court.

However, aside from "my expectations", Nel covered all the aspects he needed to prove OP fabricated his version, that OP knew Reeva was the one in the toilet when he fired his gun, and that by firing into the toilet/door he would likely kill her.

I think part of the reason my expectations from Nel & his closing arguments were not met is because I am from the US and am used to watching jury trials. The prosecutor (or defense) have a much different task when talking/convincing a jury of 12 lay people, as opposed to a seasoned judge. Jury trials (with great closings) rely on Power Point presentations, lots of visuals, easy to follow "beginning, middle & end" storyline type of layout and help the jurors (even though not required by law) with possible motives and more. I would have LOVED to see a lawyer like Alan Jackson (he prosecuted Phil Spector) pop in to handle the closing for the state, using all of Nel's great evidence and arguments before the court and transform it into a great story telling session like he seems to do so effortlessly. (Side note: I am NOT a fan of prosecutor styles like Juan Martinez - Jodi Arias trial - that relentlessly pound their point across, bullying witnesses and losing all sense of professionalism, IMO.)

I think Nel is an amazing attorney. His forte seems to definitely be cross examination. (He would actually make an amazing defense lawyer, but I can't see that ever happening.) When I first watched him present his trial in chief I was a little worried he wasn't a strong enough prosecutor for this case. Roux seemed to be stealing the show during his cross. Then the defense's case was presented and we quickly learned the reason for Nel's nickname. He was so impressive. He is smart, quick on his feet and doesn't let a single spoken word from a witness get past him, if it conflicts with something previously said. But he is no storyteller, and not suited for bringing home the closing arguments in front of a 12 panel jury of lay people. But of course, that wasn't his task. He was speaking to a seasoned Judge and her Assessors. Nel certainly knows his stuff and addressed all the very key points (even ones that seem so small to the lay person, but he provided clarity to their much larger significance in the case and why they disapprove OP's version). This is all he needed to do in front of a judge. He doesn't need to concern himself with the gallery of folks in the courtroom, the audience at home watching Oscar TV or even Reeva's parents. Just highlight the important pieces of evidence presented during trial, the legal points that support their importance and the conflict in evidence & testimony from both the state & the defense, that show OP's version "can not be so". And therefore, Oscar knew it was Reeva, not an intruder, in the toilet.

I was wrong to expect a closing needed for a jury. It is not necessary for a judge. I think the state has a strong case & Nel highlighted to the court what he needed to.

Good post! I agree with most of what you said; maybe with the exception of being disappointed.

This trial was never meant to be about filling in the gaps of the timeline. Nel stuck with his plan and stated from the first day of trial that he would prove that Oscar's case was not reasonably, possibly true. I believe he has done that. And in the absence of a true and substantiated story from the accused, the court is left with having to accept the objective facts that were presented.

In that case, just the female screams alone are actually enough. Seems kind of crazy to think about after the thousands of conversations here trying to figure this whole thing out.
 
Anyone else notice the incessant coughing during Nel's closing arguments ?

What was that all about ?… It was quite annoying… Don't recall there being such coughing during the Trial.

Has the ebola epidemic reached SA ?

Did Defence retain the services of professional 'coughers' to purposefully distract Nel, Masipa and the assessors ?

If coughing is absent tomorrow, my suspicions will certainly grow…lol

LOL, I noticed that too, out of common courtesy the 'guilty' person should have left the room. I think it is a tactic to put someone off, I've experienced similar before.
 
It should be very interesting to hear what Barry Roux will have to say during his closing. Especially after Oscar has attempted to throw him under the bus several times.

Does Roux strike anyone as the type to "fall on his sword" for Oscar?

I don't think even Roux's massive paycheck includes sharp, pointy things that would require an ER. LOL

After being unceremoniously thrown under the bus by my wailing, puking, howling, thoroughly obnoxious client, I might seriously consider very surreptitiously "switching sides" in plain sight. The money's the same. :D
 
This is something I posted on Juror13's blog. I have edited it for context…..

The State has to build a case. It sounds obvious, but it is really important to consider this. The only person who was with Reeva when she was killed, is accused of her Murder.

The Prosecution has no way of independently verifying if OP was on his stumps. They wish to Prosecute, but know that their case will be subject to ruthless examination. This is why they have gone down the route they have – i.e. Go along with the Defence that OP was on his stumps.

Why?

Well, because it actually does not matter. Seriously, it does not.

If OP was on his stumps? Well the bullets would have hit the door at roughly the height they did. However, do not rule out that OP was on his artificial legs & crouched into a hideous firing position.

The Prosecution has done a superb job of leaving this option open, even though they have said that in all probability OP was on his Stumps.

They cannot know for a fact. They have just been trying to help the Court understand the position of the person that pulled the Trigger, who incidentally, has done nothing to help a Court understand the truth.

OP shot through a door. The defence say he was scared and have three versions of this as a defence.

It is not likely to be the truth. If it is? Then most people fed up with their partners with access to a gun, are looking at an excuse for killing them ….

I see your point, one could argue that there is some wiggle room with the State's position on the stumps. But, one more thing to consider... Vermuelen also testified that OP was on his stumps when he hit the door with the bat.

I agree with you though that stumps or not, it is not a strong sticking point in the story anymore. The totality of the evidence shows that OP's story is not true.
 
Oscar Trial Channel ‏@OscarTrial199 1m
Nel: state witnesses, Van der Merwe, Burger, Stipps are all independent witnesses, we have no indication of knowing one another.

Nel: when they made their statements, they had never met...showed it an unblemished view of events.


Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman 1m
Nel: it’s not possible that independent witnesses could make statements with that amount of corroboration.

Nel: the witnesses remained steadfast despite untested claims (Oscar’s woman screams) being put to them. BB

BIB, finally vindication for the state witnesses who were belittled by Roux for doing their civic duty.
 
No only that he "didn't" Minor, he couldn't!


I'm confused, so are you saying OP did not kill Reeva? He did not intend to kill the person behind the toilet door? OP felt threatened by nothing but the same noises he has heard every other night? This particular night, Valentine's night, he felt more threatened then ever before because....?

OP's illogical story - An intruder would scale his house to climb into a bathroom window instead of enter through a downstairs broken window? The intruder would wait for OP to close the balcony doors and curtains and immediately enter through the bathroom window knowing the owner was awake and armed?

OP shot the 'intruder' through the door yet still felt his life was threatened, he did not turn the light for fear the other 'intruders' might attack him, all this time he had left Reeva alone to fend for herself while he dealt with the one and only 'intruder'?

OP's story has more holes than Swiss cheese. Added picture for effect. :)

swiss_cheese.jpg
 
LOL, I noticed that too, out of common courtesy the 'guilty' person should have left the room. I think it is a tactic to put someone off, I've experienced similar before.

I was really hoping that Masipa would have said, unless your a SteinKamp "Get the F out of ma court room!". It does smack of gamesmanship in the wrong context but I think Nel did extremely well not to be put off by it. The coughing is similar to Oldwages power staring over the rim of his glasses for effect ...irritating :moo:.
 
I can't see Roux not fighting until the very end, to win the case for his client, somehow. Even if he doesn't like him (I have no idea if he does or not).

I think OP’s a totally charming, personable, funny, infinitely likeable guy - unless he’s drinking, losing races, forcefully opening or closing doors, threatening to break people’s legs or murdering them. lol
 
I would have preferred, if Nel would have pledged the individual facts on the head to OP like: Mr. Pistorius, you have aimed, Mr. Pistorius, you have ........ that done, that not done and so on. In the expression a little bit more accusatory, in order to OP hearing one last time, what he has perpetrated.

Yes I agree, I like that style better too.
 
I was disappointed in Nel's closing arguments. I had expected much more. I expected a concise storyline/timeline of events, and a much more polished presentation to the court.

However, aside from "my expectations", Nel covered all the aspects he needed to prove OP fabricated his version, that OP knew Reeva was the one in the toilet when he fired his gun, and that by firing into the toilet/door he would likely kill her.

I think part of the reason my expectations from Nel & his closing arguments were not met is because I am from the US and am used to watching jury trials. The prosecutor (or defense) have a much different task when talking/convincing a jury of 12 lay people, as opposed to a seasoned judge. Jury trials (with great closings) rely on Power Point presentations, lots of visuals, easy to follow "beginning, middle & end" storyline type of layout and help the jurors (even though not required by law) with possible motives and more. I would have LOVED to see a lawyer like Alan Jackson (he prosecuted Phil Spector) pop in to handle the closing for the state, using all of Nel's great evidence and arguments before the court and transform it into a great story telling session like he seems to do so effortlessly. (Side note: I am NOT a fan of prosecutor styles like Juan Martinez - Jodi Arias trial - that relentlessly pound their point across, bullying witnesses and losing all sense of professionalism, IMO.)

I think Nel is an amazing attorney. His forte seems to definitely be cross examination. (He would actually make an amazing defense lawyer, but I can't see that ever happening.) When I first watched him present his trial in chief I was a little worried he wasn't a strong enough prosecutor for this case. Roux seemed to be stealing the show during his cross. Then the defense's case was presented and we quickly learned the reason for Nel's nickname. He was so impressive. He is smart, quick on his feet and doesn't let a single spoken word from a witness get past him, if it conflicts with something previously said. But he is no storyteller, and not suited for bringing home the closing arguments in front of a 12 panel jury of lay people. But of course, that wasn't his task. He was speaking to a seasoned Judge and her Assessors. Nel certainly knows his stuff and addressed all the very key points (even ones that seem so small to the lay person, but he provided clarity to their much larger significance in the case and why they disapprove OP's version). This is all he needed to do in front of a judge. He doesn't need to concern himself with the gallery of folks in the courtroom, the audience at home watching Oscar TV or even Reeva's parents. Just highlight the important pieces of evidence presented during trial, the legal points that support their importance and the conflict in evidence & testimony from both the state & the defense, that show OP's version "can not be so". And therefore, Oscar knew it was Reeva, not an intruder, in the toilet.

I was wrong to expect a closing needed for a jury. It is not necessary for a judge. I think the state has a strong case & Nel highlighted to the court what he needed to.

Well said.
 
Roux tried mightily and FAILED to discredit Estelle van der Merwe’s testimony.

One does NOT need to understand each and every word or even the language to fully understand an ARGUMENT is taking place. Vocal volume, pitch, inflection, speed, etc. say it all. Recognizing human “fighting” is universal.

(Who else in Silverwoods that night was arguing and killed someone?)

I agree. Roux comes across as petty sometimes.
 
What benefit did OP believe he would gain by saying he did not go out onto the balcony when in his original statement, he did say he went out onto the balcony?

If OP went out onto the balcony he would have turned around to bring in fans, reaching out to balcony to bring in fans enables him to not to have turned around so he couldn't possibly see Reeva.
IMO, this was brought up to OP by the Defence, so OP corrected himself.
 
Masipa questioning Nel finishing today. Masipa says she is not available next week AT ALL!!

Mmm...perhaps this is her subtle way of speeding Nel up because she TOTALLY AGREES with basically everything he’s saying (few to no questions!)...and wants to get Roux’s intolerable drivel over as soon as possible? LOL

This may be a very good sign for the State!
:D
 
It has been noted that Nel does indeed get last up closing at the end

There's one big problem with this. Masipa has stated she's in Court next so they must finish by Friday. What's the bet Roux rambles on and on and leaves Nel no time. I can see this coming.
 
Nail on head.

We are accustomed to hearing everything wrapped up in the closing argument, but it's important to remember that here it's just a synopsis, and the full argument is submitted on paper. We do expect a barrister to be enormously articulate and convincing, but it's a very different situation here where there is no jury to impress.

To be honest, I have been disappointed with both counsels on their oratorical skills UNTIL I remind myself that they are not working in their first language - something I think most of us forget.

If anyone hasn't read the State argument in full, I recommend that they do so. It is very coherent, and while it doesn't butter every slice in the loaf, it certainly presents a satisfying plate of sandwiches.

I agree, I could imagine Nel would find it so much easier in Afrikaan. AFAIK, it is held in English because Judge Masipa does not speak Afrikaan? :dunno:
 
How many here think that OP will quietly "disappear" before Judge Masipa's verdict (or upon conviction, "disappear" before the appeals verdict)?

He KNOWS he's guilty as sin of murder.
KNOWS his testimony was unmitigated sh#t, the worst kind of total train wreck.
KNOWS he threw everyone but God under the bus.
KNOWS his Defense witnesses/experts sucked on multiple levels.
KNOWS he has forever lost the admiration and goodwill of many friends and the world.
KNOWS he has forever lost his previous career, income and status.
KNOWS his family’s influence and money can (legally) save him from only so much.

What’s he got left to lose except his freedom?

Africa is a massive continent.

Oscar has many local, regional and international “connections”, some arguably dubious, if not downright shady - and yes, still very staunch supporters.

For the right price, with the perfect plan, I think even Oscar Pistorius could “disappear”.

I do believe that OP’s family would do literally anything to prevent him from rotting in prison.

Then, of course, there’s the “final, permanent solution” to avoid prison - but I think OP is far too arrogant, contemptuous and unrepentant for that.

Do you really think OP will ever allow himself to be sent to prison?

I agree, OP will do anything not to go to prison. I also believe he will not take the 'final solution', and I, for one, never believed that was an option for him, but he let others believe it to gain sympathy.

I don't believe OP has ever been remorseful for any of his actions and all his yawning as far as I am concerned, showed contempt for a trial he thought should never have happened (yes, he's probably medicated up to his eyeballs).

Imo, OP is transparent like glass. He LOVES life and he lives it to the full, it's a shame he took Reeva's life to be held accountable for the runaway train that he is. JMHO
 
I reckon he's been heavily sedated .. to stop him getting angry with what's being said (I've suspected that right throughout the trial)

Considering his disastrous performance on the stand, I'd say they maybe gave him a little TOO much sedation? Although I'm not sure any combo of drugs would have helped OP's testimony-gone-wild. I'm thinking they should have gone with some small animal tranquilizer and dart gun. LOL :D
 
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