Trial Discussion Thread #49 - 14.08.7, Day 39 ~final arguments~

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That was an excellent analogy by Nel about the '10%' .. he likened it to having cancer where the rest of the body can be 90% (or more) perfectly ok, but it's that 10% (or less) that is the crucial bit.

Now I'm worried .. Judge Masipa interjected by saying you can't really say what their relationship was like just because of those few messages .. gahhhhhh! If she doesn't understand the significance of those messages, then there's no hope .. (she probably won't understand the significance of any of all this other evidence Nel is presenting today .. the evidence is so overwhelming it takes your breath away .. I sincerely hope she is 'getting' it .. )

Hang in there jay-jay. Just keep remembering that the State's case is circumstantial and will be viewed as a whole, not piece by piece. Several things have jarred with me for not having been mentioned, but Nel's only taking chunks to present to Masipa. I haven't read the heads yet, but in any event I just can't see OP getting out of this.
 
I was disappointed in Nel's closing arguments. I had expected much more. I expected a concise storyline/timeline of events, and a much more polished presentation to the court.

However, aside from "my expectations", Nel covered all the aspects he needed to prove OP fabricated his version, that OP knew Reeva was the one in the toilet when he fired his gun, and that by firing into the toilet/door he would likely kill her.

I think part of the reason my expectations from Nel & his closing arguments were not met is because I am from the US and am used to watching jury trials. The prosecutor (or defense) have a much different task when talking/convincing a jury of 12 lay people, as opposed to a seasoned judge. Jury trials (with great closings) rely on Power Point presentations, lots of visuals, easy to follow "beginning, middle & end" storyline type of layout and help the jurors (even though not required by law) with possible motives and more. I would have LOVED to see a lawyer like Alan Jackson (he prosecuted Phil Spector) pop in to handle the closing for the state, using all of Nel's great evidence and arguments before the court and transform it into a great story telling session like he seems to do so effortlessly. (Side note: I am NOT a fan of prosecutor styles like Juan Martinez - Jodi Arias trial - that relentlessly pound their point across, bullying witnesses and losing all sense of professionalism, IMO.)

I think Nel is an amazing attorney. His forte seems to definitely be cross examination. (He would actually make an amazing defense lawyer, but I can't see that ever happening.) When I first watched him present his trial in chief I was a little worried he wasn't a strong enough prosecutor for this case. Roux seemed to be stealing the show during his cross. Then the defense's case was presented and we quickly learned the reason for Nel's nickname. He was so impressive. He is smart, quick on his feet and doesn't let a single spoken word from a witness get past him, if it conflicts with something previously said. But he is no storyteller, and not suited for bringing home the closing arguments in front of a 12 panel jury of lay people. But of course, that wasn't his task. He was speaking to a seasoned Judge and her Assessors. Nel certainly knows his stuff and addressed all the very key points (even ones that seem so small to the lay person, but he provided clarity to their much larger significance in the case and why they disapprove OP's version). This is all he needed to do in front of a judge. He doesn't need to concern himself with the gallery of folks in the courtroom, the audience at home watching Oscar TV or even Reeva's parents. Just highlight the important pieces of evidence presented during trial, the legal points that support their importance and the conflict in evidence & testimony from both the state & the defense, that show OP's version "can not be so". And therefore, Oscar knew it was Reeva, not an intruder, in the toilet.

I was wrong to expect a closing needed for a jury. It is not necessary for a judge. I think the state has a strong case & Nel highlighted to the court what he needed to.

Thank you for this; I think it's spot on. I guess I was expecting something dazzling from Nel, but you are right, what we got instead was a thoroughness and professionalism entirely appropriate to the legal system he's operating within. arrrgh. It's weird to feel so emotionally invested in something like this. I feel so bad for Reeva Steenkamp. And her family, her friends. Because of that I think there's an impulse which wants this @-hole to be confronted with the full abject horror and ugliness of what he did whenever possible. But that's a selfish impulse and nothing to do with the processes in place. Thank you for an exceptionally measured and reassuring post.
 
I have only posted a cpl. times since the Trial began and one of my posts was my feeling that Masipa was not showing she was taking testimony presented by Nel as serious as I hoped she would and she proved it today when she remarked during his closing on the importance of the Whatsapps from RS. The way OP was treating her didn't happen on one day or last week, it was ongoing , even during good times, she stated she always had to be mindful of OP frame of mind so he would'nt turn on her.
Masipa interrupting Nel during cross to scold him saying OP didn't write his Bail... So don't hold him responsible for important information that OP claims was left out but the States witnesses were not given the same consideration. No I don't feel comfortable at all with Masipa......I hope I am wrong

I dont feel comfortable with Masipa either. I began to think she was sympathising with OP somewhat. I hope I am wrong too and hope there is not some sort of personal connection she developed.
 
Hang in there jay-jay. Just keep remembering that the State's case is circumstantial and will be viewed as a whole, not piece by piece. Several things have jarred with me for not having been mentioned, but Nel's only taking chunks to present to Masipa. I haven't read the heads yet, but in any event I just can't see OP getting out of this.

We had the state one last night that someone found on the net, but have yet to see the defense. Who was it that posted it right before Nel got up http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02999/HEADS_OF_ARGUMENT__2999306a.pdf and can someone do it again for the defense prior to starting tonight?

BTW... do we need to go to Zwiebels house 30 minutes prior and get her off that floor that she might be cleaning AGAIN to tell her that court has started. That was toooo funny her story on why she was late.

ETA: Just started reading the Heads Of Argument from last night that someone posted... on first few pages it says :floorlaugh: "The State will reveal to the court in these
heads of argument that the accused , in keeping with his profession as an athlete, was faced during his trial with a race, and the opportunity to run with the baton of truth. The State will expose how he stumbled over his lies and deceit and in the process was unable to complete the race
 
I liked this bit from the full argument document:

"By taking cover behind the wall of the door leading from the bedroom and drawing Reeva behind him, he would have had a secure position from which to defend them both. He would have had a clear field of fire down the passage towards the bathroom should any threat have emerged from the bathroom into the passage."

Hard to argue with that. It makes it so clear.


But we are still denied the full Saayman testimony!

"It will do the evidence of Professor Saayman an injustice to attempt to summarise it and we would rather refer the court to his brilliant exposition at pages 517 line 7 to 520 line 25."
 
It was briefly referenced on Oscar radio before court today that OP's father has now provided the DT with an affidavit claiming the ammunition was his. They have closed their case so I'd presume they can't submit this into the court record.

Wow, what a blow for the defense. You would think if it belonged to his dad, he would have done I during th trial. There would be no point in doing it now as the trial is over
 
FFS! Is Oscar pulling a vomit? Or just trying to work up a few convulsions?

I’m expecting him to hack up a hairball any minute.

God knows what's really in his eye drops, sports drink and that Green Bucket.
 
Wow, what a blow for the defense. You would think if it belonged to his dad, he would have done I during th trial. There would be no point in doing it now as the trial is over

Pointless really…

- As I understand it, whether the .38 bullets belonged to his father or not, it was illegal for OP to store them in his safe.

- The probative value of the content of an affidavit written by the father of the accused is quite low.

- The early refusal to provide such an affidavit followed by its late submission, reduces the probative value to nil.
 
The defense keeps saying that there is nothing in the law that says a gun owner must store their ammunition in their own safe. Okay.

But there is something that says if you do not own a weapon that uses a certain type of bullet, you may not possess the ammunition. So it is two different things.

1.) Regarding the owner of a certain weapon and where the owner of said weapon can store the ammunition.

2.) Oscar having ammunition in his safe, within his home, for a weapon he did not own.
 
What benefit did OP believe he would gain by saying he did not go out onto the balcony when in his original statement, he did say he went out onto the balcony?

The fans have really caused OP a lot of problems.

1. As Nel stated, OP had to add an additional fan into his version in order to add time, so that Reeva would have had enough time to get out of bed and go to the bathroom without him seeing her.

2. OP backtracked from his initial version of going out onto the balcony to retrieve the fan(s), and put forth his subsequent version that he never went onto the balcony, in order for his back to be to the bedroom to prevent him from seeing Reeva. Remember - the balcony light was on, so there would have been more than enough light to illuminate the bedroom.

3. After the crime scene photos showed the large tripod fan in front of the balcony door, literally blocking anyone from being able to go out onto the balcony, OP realized that his claim of exiting onto the balcony to scream for help had a serious, insurmountable flaw.

4. He then claimed that the police tampered with the crime scene (moved the fans and the duvet) while simultaneously claiming that he didn't go onto the balcony to scream for help or to look for Reeva.

Those fans and their locations are, IMO, two of the most critical pieces of evidence because if one accepts the State's version, then OP's versions are lies. If one accepts OP's ever-evolving tailored versions, then the investigators tampered with the crime scene.

IMO, this is why the State, the Defense, and OP have focused so much on those fans.

In order to accept OP's multiple versions, one must imagine that investigators somehow managed to alter the crime scene in such a way as to miraculously intuit OP's future version(s) of events.

As Mr. Nel so astutely put it: "The conspiracy is too complicated and impossible".
 
The fans have really caused OP a lot of problems.

1. As Nel stated, OP had to add an additional fan into his version in order to add time, so that Reeva would have had enough time to get out of bed and go to the bathroom without him seeing her.

2. OP backtracked from his initial version of going out onto the balcony to retrieve the fan(s), and put forth his subsequent version that he never went onto the balcony, in order for his back to be to the bedroom to prevent him from seeing Reeva. Remember - the balcony light was on, so there would have been more than enough light to illuminate the bedroom.

3. After the crime scene photos showed the large tripod fan in front of the balcony door, literally blocking anyone from being able to go out onto the balcony, OP realized that his claim of exiting onto the balcony to scream for help had a serious, insurmountable flaw.

4. He then claimed that the police tampered with the crime scene (moved the fans and the duvet) while simultaneously claiming that he didn't go onto the balcony to scream for help or to look for Reeva.

Those fans and their locations are, IMO, two of the most critical pieces of evidence because if one accepts the State's version, then OP's versions are lies. If one accepts OP's ever-evolving tailored versions, then the investigators tampered with the crime scene.

IMO, this is why the State, the Defense, and OP have focused so much on those fans.

In order to accept OP's multiple versions, one must imagine that investigators somehow managed to alter the crime scene in such a way as to miraculously intuit OP's future version(s) of events.

As Mr. Nel so astutely put it: "The conspiracy is too complicated and impossible".

Indeed…

Roux's feeble and pathetic attempt to convince Masipa that Police had not tampered but rather inadvertently moved various items is laughable to say the least…

1- Police unplugged the floor fan and placed it neatly in the corner of the bedroom

2- Police plugged in the hair clippers where the floor fan used to be plugged in

3- Police turned off the tripod fan and moved it closer to the balcony door

4- Police opened the curtains

5- Police removed duvet from the bed and placed it on the floor where the tripod fan used to be

6- Police picked up the jeans and placed then on the floor making sure a small portion overlapped onto the duvet

7- Police retrieved Reeva's blood from the toilet cubicle floor with a pipette and created a blood spatter trail that ran from the carpet onto the duvet

… once this was done, police photographer began documenting the crime scene.

Really Roux… that's the best you can offer the Court ??

All this was done inadvertently BUT ended up destroying OP's version of events by pure coincidence ?

Not only that, OP also failed to notice any of these major, version critical changes ?… until the glaring contradictions were pointed out by Nel during cross-examination.

Better yet, OP, who had stated that experts were going to be called to testify about police tampering and contamination, never spotted these obvious changes made by police.

Finally, Roux never bothered to cross-examine Van Rensburg or Van Staden on any of those changes made by police.

:juggle:
 
These words were uttered by Nel, not me. People don't put everything in quotes when the advocates are on their feet. We're trying to assist people who can't get or lose their feeds. I wouldn't presume to know what a court should take into account, and I'm not a lawyer in any event.

:thumb:
 
For anyone who wants to hear Carr weigh in on Oscar generally and his recent nightclub behaviour.
I like him! :clap: (Lux you will like this.)

http://www.jacarandafm.com/post/pistorius-provoked-or-predictable-pattern-leonard-carr-interview/

I agree very much with his observations of OP. OP is always a 'victim' of circumstance! And he most definitely should stay away from alcohol, with his body being so finely tuned, it wouldn't take much for him to become intoxicated and he's an aggressive drunk. JMHO
 
Originally Posted by Interested Bystander I only saw the first half hour or so of the proceedings but noticed OP was yawning a great deal and looking down. I thought perhaps the yawning was nervousness or possibly medication for the night before that may have not worn off. His looking down I felt fairly sure was that he was "playing" with his phone, texting or reading messages etc. Then I wondered, given his propensity for showing his religious inclinations whether he had a small bible with him. In the following Telegraph report there is a photo of him using/playing with his phone whilst the HoA were underway. Does he not realise his behaviour shows such enormous lack of respect (even contempt) for the court proceedings and does he just not care?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ents-live.html

Bet he's playing Angry Birds.

isn't that a pic from july 3? http://www.gettyimages.ca/editorial/oscar-pistorius-pictures?Language=en-GB
 
Seriously, what woman in her right mind would ever date Oscar Pistorius? He goes way beyond the proverbial 'bad boy'.

Not that he'll have much opportunity to date in prison anyway. LOL

Maybe that's why he took off for the VIP Room several weeks ago* - trying to resurrect his lost lifestyle, enjoy it while he can. Even that didn't work out so well. LOL

He can literally see his life slipping away.


* "Lonely and alienated" - yeah, that happens a lot when you murder people.
 
The Pistorius clan presents a united front, but you’ve got to wonder how many in OP’s large family actually believe he’s 100% innocent of murdering Reeva? Surely, at least one or two of them have serious doubts?
 
The Pistorius clan presents a united front, but you’ve got to wonder how many in OP’s large family actually believe he’s 100% innocent of murdering Reeva? Surely, at least one or two of them have serious doubts?

I actually thought sister Aimee looked like she had an epiphany when Nel was wrapping up the ridiculous Op story lines. I reckon she would have to know there was something super fishy about that night by now.:moo:
 
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