trial thread; 3/6/2012

[Kamille]

It's hard to say. Wendell wrote that she last saw the car in early May (after the abduction), but she didn't say when was the last time before that that she saw him. If it was more than a month, he could have repainted it before the abduction.

And if you look at the two pics from the police website, they don't look all that different to me, but the quality of the pics is bad and the angles different, so it's difficult to tell.

About the only thing we can be sure of is that the dash was painted white both before and after the abduction.

JMO

Yes I think we discussed a long time ago that the black paint was likely starting to wear off of areas on the car that are not metal like the bumper. A flat matte paint wouldn't likely adhere as well and stay on after multiple rains and perhaps car washes. And it was probably starting to fade as well, perhaps prompting his friend to suggest painting the whole thing over again.

ETA: Did we ever find out at what point the car was actually the blue colour? Was the paint job right before the abduction?

MOO

 

[antiquegirl]

So what? Where is he going with this?

I am mostly confused by this line of questioning, too, but here's a guess. What if the defence's point were in these Tweets:

Linda Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenPN

Perry says she saw #ToriStafford 2 or 3 times a week. Saw her on Apr 8 w a young woman who was "in a hurry"

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP

Perry says woman in white coat was walking fast "with purpose"

Adrian Morrow‏@AdrianMorrow

"She was walking very fast, they were moving with a purpose," Ms. Perry says of #ToriStafford and woman in white coat. Heard no conversation

A possibility is that the defence was suggesting that this was no casual stroll with TLM about to walk Tori home until she met up with MTR. That the haste and purpose indicate that the abduction plan was already in motion, with TLM anxious to get Tori (and herself!) away from witnesses and to their ultimate destination.

Merely a guess and JMO.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I am mostly confused by this line of questioning, too, but here's a guess. What if the defence's point were in these Tweets:







A possibility is that the defence was suggesting that this was no casual stroll with TLM about to walk Tori home until she met up with MTR. That the haste and purpose indicate that the abduction plan was already in motion, with TLM anxious to get Tori (and herself!) away from witnesses and to their ultimate destination.

Merely a guess and JMO.

I was thinking earlier that perhaps the reason why TLM was walking slightly ahead of TS when she walked past Miss Perry was because TLM didn't want to give the impression she was with TS?

 

[antiquegirl]

I think it was MTR in driving too. Not just because it really does look like a man/him in the pic.

To me it makes sense that they would want to be prepared for a fast get away at the school. MTR would have been ready at the wheel to take off as soon as TLMc got Tori into car. They could have switched I suppose, but I don't see that.

(BBM)

That reminds me. Was I the only one surprised at today's witness, LP, who testified about seeing TLM with Tori as she waited for her own sons? We all thought that person in the video was a man at the time.:blushing1:

 

[Hello_Kitty]

(BBM)

That reminds me. Was I the only one surprised at today's witness, LP, who testified about seeing TLM with Tori as she waited for her own sons? We all thought that person in the video was a man at the time.:blushing1:

I don't want to be critical of the lady, but if I'd had a feeling something wasn't right as she says, I sure wouldn't have shrugged it off, especially in the light that Miss P had never seen TLM around before. I would have asked what her business was with TS and perhaps even used my cell phone to call TS's mother or call the school, or cops. or someone!!!

 

[ChaChaCha]

I was thinking earlier that perhaps the reason why TLM was walking slightly ahead of TS when she walked past Miss Perry was because TLM didn't want to give the impression she was with TS?

Very odd that the two were not chatting if Tori was excited to go see a puppy ... kinda refutes the puppy theory. Since DS had thought it looked like his sister was crying in the video, it would appear that TLM delivered a terse message for TS to accompany her and didnt give her time to think about stranger danger or ask questions by striding ahead at a fast pace.

I am still not buying that this abduction was random ... if TS was out the door a few minutes later than the other kids, wouldn't TLM have tried for one of them first? There must have been a few girls walking by themselves. Except that TLM was not sure which children had parents waiting and watching for them at the top of the hill. Calling TS by her given name would reassure TS and almost guarantee that the girl would go without a fuss. Also was it not noted previously that TLM walked her own dogs in that area from time to time. Perhaps TS knew her to see her.

I know, I am like a broken record. Am interested tho to hear TM version of the events of that day ... and whether she again confirms how she knew TLM.

 

[jolady]

Hindsight is always 20/20. It would be different if you saw her everyday being picked up by her mother or the same person but from what we know about the family, the kids grandmother was the main caregiver and then you would assume her mother and her bf were sometimes there and her father and his gf at the time. If you aren't familiar with the family dynamics and you see various people meeting her, I think most people wouldn't question it. JMO

 

[matou]

He wasn't the expert — whenever he found something of interest on the video, he'd send it onto the forensic analyst. He was the expert's footman.

But it was nonetheless Brocanier who first spotted the fleeting images of a car on the videos — a small dark car, possibly grey, with distinctive black tires and rims.

He noticed it first because it appeared to be slowing down just after it passed the little girl's school and again, a minute or so after Tori herself was seen on video walking with a young woman in a white jacket — and now the car was heading north.

It was Brocanier's eureka moment.

Read more: http://www.canada.com/Blatchford+Mo...murder+trial/6260868/story.html#ixzz1oOLNbSSZ

 

[matou]

On the video, when her seven-year-old got to the top of the hill, Perry appeared to touch his face, or adjust his collar; it was a gentle mother's hello.

She turned red and wept as she watched it: She had won the parental lottery that day, and she knew it.

JMO but I don't think TLM would have taken her son, I think Rafferty wanted a little girl.
Read more: http://www.canada.com/Blatchford+Mo...murder+trial/6260868/story.html#ixzz1oOM1aKp2

 

[ChaChaCha]

I don't want to be critical of the lady, but if I'd had a feeling something wasn't right as she says, I sure wouldn't have shrugged it off, especially in the light that Miss P had never seen TLM around before. I would have asked what her business was with TS and perhaps even used my cell phone to call TS's mother or call the school, or cops. or someone!!!

That poor mom must feel so badly over what happened. Now I am more the friendly sort, so I may have called out to the child - even a hi or is everything okay sweetie if I knew her well enough to do so ... perhaps the mom knew who TS was, but didnt know her that well and didnt want to be intrusive at the time. My heart goes out to her as well.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Hindsight is always 20/20. It would be different if you saw her everyday being picked up by her mother or the same person but from what we know about the family, the kids grandmother was the main caregiver and then you would assume her mother and her bf were sometimes there and her father and his gf at the time. If you aren't familiar with the family dynamics and you see various people meeting her, I think most people wouldn't question it. JMO

But Miss testified in court she 'felt something was not right'. I don't, maybe I'm just the type of person who would follow up on my gut instinct. Probably why I was often in trouble when I was a teenager

 

[Hello_Kitty]

That poor mom must feel so badly over what happened. Now I am more the friendly sort, so I may have called out to the child - even a hi or is everything okay sweetie if I knew her well enough to do so ... perhaps the mom knew who TS was, but didnt know her that well and didnt want to be intrusive at the time. My heart goes out to her as well.

Agreed, she must be feeling awfully guilty now

 

[daisy.faithfull]

(BBM)

That reminds me. Was I the only one surprised at today's witness, LP, who testified about seeing TLM with Tori as she waited for her own sons? We all thought that person in the video was a man at the time.:blushing1:

I posted over in the "who's driving the car" thread something related to that point.

There is a girl missing and at the beginning of the case they were showing footage that could have been of her. It was very difficult to tell mainly, IMO, because the video made her look much heavier than she was. It was confirmed though that it was in fact her in the video.

So it does seem like these type of videos can add a lot of weight to a person beyond what you would think just from the blurred image.

Nothing to be embarrassed about.

I still think that it is MTR driving the car though.

 

[margaret_diane]

I was thinking earlier that perhaps the reason why TLM was walking slightly ahead of TS when she walked past Miss Perry was because TLM didn't want to give the impression she was with TS?

Actually I was thinking this as well. If TLM knew at that point that she was abducting TOri, then she wouldn't want anyone to be able to tie her to that little girl! So then I ask again - if TLM didn't wake up that morning thinking she would abduct and murder a little girl, then when exactly did this plan get made?

Was it HOURS before? Was it Minutes before? At what point did the idea to take a child enter her mind, and at what point did she decide to act on the idea.

For that matter, who's idea was this? His or hers? Not that it matters really - Tori still suffered and was murdered as a result of all of this. I just honestly don't get how anyone can do this to a wee little girl!? To any child? To any human!! I couldn't sleep at all last night as I was up thinking about what Tori endured, and was just horrified!! I cannot imagine how her family continues to cope day after day. I just can't. I think if Tori had been one of my loved ones, or someone I knew and cared about (eg: if I'd have been her teacher), I'd just curl up and cry day after day. Its horrible!

 

[matou]

It all hinges on a dark-coloured car that Det. Constable Brocanier glimpsed on video several times near the school.

The first sighting was around 3:05 p.m., as the car travelled down the street outside Oliver Stephens. Then, about 15 minutes later, video from a nearby Esso station showed a similar vehicle pulling in, sporting distinctive black rims and a tinted rear window, and driven by a person in a white top.

Shortly after 3:30 p.m., other video showed a dark car pulling into the parking lot of Caressant Care retirement home, up the block from Oliver Stephens. About a minute and a half later, Tori and Ms. McClintic walked by and additional footage, the officer said, showed the pair walking toward the retirement home.

Seconds later, the dark car pulled out of the lot.

If his hunches are correct, the entire abduction took less than three minutes.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ictoria-stafford-was-abducted/article2360263/

 

[nettie_82]

Rodney Stafford on Day Two

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/06/19468626.html

I just watched this video and within the last minute of the video Rodney speaks of keeping this about Tori and keeping this about protecting our children! He is such a selfless person, at a time when he could be wallowing in self pity for everything he has to listen to in that court room from day to day he is still speaking about doing this to keep children safe! Hats off to you Rodney!!!!

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Was it HOURS before? Was it Minutes before? At what point did the idea to take a child enter her mind, and at what point did she decide to act on the idea.
!

Snipped by me:

I never believed this was a random thing, I never believed she didn't get up thinking she was going to abduct someone. I think this was something they had been thinking about for a long time, I believe they chose a child because the child would be easier to control, and I think this may have been a thrill kill. JMO

 

[margaret_diane]

On the video, when her seven-year-old got to the top of the hill, Perry appeared to touch his face, or adjust his collar; it was a gentle mother's hello.

She turned red and wept as she watched it: She had won the parental lottery that day, and she knew it.

JMO but I don't think TLM would have taken her son, I think Rafferty wanted a little girl.
Read more: http://www.canada.com/Blatchford+Mo...murder+trial/6260868/story.html#ixzz1oOM1aKp2

Matou,
You've been at this all day long! You must be exhausted by now!! Thanks for your efforts - you've really helped keep me up to date, and I appreciate it.

 

[margaret_diane]

Rodney Stafford on Day Two

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/06/19468626.html

I just watched this video and within the last minute of the video Rodney speaks of keeping this about Tori and keeping this about protecting our children! He is such a selfless person, at a time when he could be wallowing in self pity for everything he has to listen to in that court room from day to day he is still speaking about doing this to keep children safe! Hats off to you Rodney!!!!

I think I admired him more than ever when he spoke today about how the teacher described Tori in a way that he could not since he wasn't with her every day like she was, and how he thanked her for her testimony on Tori's behalf. I just read from an article that Matou linked above that he hugged the woman who saw Tori and TLM walk past as she waited for her own sons -- a very supportive and caring thing to do if you ask me.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Snipped by me:

I never believed this was a random thing, I never believed she didn't get up thinking she was going to abduct someone. I think this was something they had been thinking about for a long time, I believe they chose a child because the child would be easier to control, and I think this may have been a thrill kill. JMO

Another little girl, Sandra Cantu, was abducted and assaulted around the time Tori went missing. Before the monster, who was a woman, was caught there was general discussion about sex predators.

One point that was brought up was that sometimes they are not interested specifically in a child, they are interested in whoever is vulnerable and can be snatched quickly. :maddening: So you could be right.

I don't know if it was discussed on a show, or someone posted something about it, but I remember it.