trial thread: 4/02/2012

[antiquegirl]

There is no doubt she is an evil person. However, for whatever reasons she decided to help police, be it for her own selfishness, Tori was brought home and her family was able to bury her with dignity. If it had not been for TLM, she might never have been found, MR certainly wasn't offering to help police.

Well, technically, TLM's "help" didn't result in finding Tori. Ultimately, it was MTR's phone usage that did. That's what put Smyth on the right trail and it was only after he found Tori's remains that it was confirmed that the surroundings matched TLM's description.

A break came July 17, when cellphone records showed a tower near Mount Forest had received a call April 8 from Rafferty's phone.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/30/19573966.html

Obviously, I'm not giving MTR any credit for this, but only pointing out that it took another two months and that extra info to actually locate Tori. Since I believe that TLM had her own motives for "helping", she gets zero credit, IMHO.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I doubt very much that "she genuinely wanted to help the police...she more than likely thought it would help her to squeeze out a lighter sentence...I give this person no credit whatsoever and if I attempted to post just exactly what I personally think of her and MR I would be banned for life from this site...I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I cringe when I read anything positive about this person... I have my own opinion why she could recall the surroundings that evening and it is not about her turning her back and moving away from an ugly scene...JMO

The problem I have with her "genuinely wanting to help" is that, if she could so accurately describe this place she presumably has never been before, then why could she not remember that they should perhaps search a little further away, why could she conveniently not remember where the car wash was, or where the Tim Horton's was? It seems to me that she gave just enough information to appear to be helping, without actually giving up the important things. Had it not been for MR's cell phone pinging off that tower, it's unknown whether they would have searched any farther away, and Tori may never have been found. JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

JMO. I believe the crown set up this viewing today to show some credibility in TLM's testimony. I feel that the jury saw that today. Everything she stated about the site was visible. I agree, this viewing today did not prove MR's involvement, I don't feel that was the purpose of todays event, they were not there to see evidence. I believe that further evidence will also back up more of her testimony in regards to MR. Again this is JMO.

I agree, Flipflop.

Everyone can see exactly what the jury did today, here on this 4:53 minute video walk around, with the CBC video.

There is no commentating, be the judge yourself.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/02/stafford-jury-scene-visit.html

 

[Macright]

JMO. I believe the crown set up this viewing today to show some credibility in TLM's testimony. I feel that the jury saw that today. Everything she stated about the site was visible. I agree, this viewing today did not prove MR's involvement, I don't feel that was the purpose of todays event, they were not there to see evidence. I believe that further evidence will also back up more of her testimony in regards to MR. Again this is JMO.

In most trials involving a murder and a location site of the body the jury are taken to the scene and I don't think it has anything to do with the credibility of a witness MOO ...

 

[antiquegirl]

I listened to MR's first interview with LE again today. I can't get over how easily he gives his Mom's full name, her boyfriend's full name, his brother's full name, gives up TLM and Carol's name...but he can't say the little girl's name and he definitely won't give up his girlfriends names...well of course except for the one who knows the little girl's mother. This guy has the strangest set of priorities ever. Seriously.

(BBM)

He personally knew the people he named. I took his refusal to give up his girlfriends' names as either chivalry, or trying to protect himself from anything negative they might have told LE. But he (supposedly) did not know Tori.

If MTR had used Tori's name in that interview, I think everyone here would have jumped on that and interpreted it as showing that he knew her better than he was supposed to. I believe that he used just the right amount of detachment for a man who had never met the child. Had he been a woman, it may have sounded more natural to refer to her by name, but I honestly believe that even an innocent man would not have.

My husband is like that and so are other men I know. They just don't refer to people by name as much as women do. It's almost always "my wife", "that kid down the street", "your daughter", etc., etc.

JMO

 

[Macright]

IIRC, he didn't have a lawyer until after he was arrested.

and I think the first words out of the police, after they read him his "rights" was if he wanted to speak with his lawyer...he probably watched enough crimes shows to know that was his right so he zipped it up asap.... oops moo

 

[flipflop]

In most trials involving a murder and a location site of the body the jury are taken to the scene and I don't think it has anything to do with the credibility of a witness MOO ...

Just curious....what do you feel was the purpose of the viewing today?

Why was the jury asked to observe the following?. (Which just happens to be everything TLM described)



Here's what jurors were asked to observe, and what reporters could observe on their own later:

Yellow lettered markers in various places that matched letters in a guidebook with instructions.

At site A, jurors were asked to look across the road at a house. The house is a nice bungalow with an arched doorway that sits at an angle to the road.

At site B, halfway to the top of the laneway, jurors were asked to notice a creek and look up the laneway to a bend. The creek does indeed run through several metal tubes, or culverts.

At spot C, the bend at the top of the laneway, jurors were asked to look north to the rock pile and east for a fence if possible. The fence and rock pile were visible, the rock pile close.

At site D, the rock pile itself, jurors were told to look back toward the house. To reporters, it was clear the house could not be seen from the rock pile.

Site E marked an area near a fence east of the rock pile. Jurors were asked to look back northwest to the rock pile. The rock pile was visible, and it took this reporter 45 steps to walk the distance from fence to rock pile.

The next two sites were not marked in reality, but only in the guidebook. To the north from the fence, jurors were told to look for silos, marked as F in their books. Those silos could be discerned, but not at a glance, through far away tree branches.

To the southwest, they were to look for more silos. Several silos rose above the treeline, easily spotted.

Finally, at site H, jurors were told to look to the north of the rock pile. When OPP Det. Staff Sgt. Jim Smyth found Tori's body July 19, 2009, he had to push lower branches aside and move one rock to make sure of his find. On Monday, the lower branches and rocks were removed so jurors could get a clear view of where Tori's body was left.
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/...don/raffertytrial/2012/04/02/pf-19585026.html

 

[swedie]

I guess this is probably the large rock that the owner of the property moved, because the jurors were there today.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/...html#/news/london/2012/04/02/pf-19585191.html

Is it just me or does one of those rocks look purple (the more round one in front). There's also another one which looks greenish yellow to the right. Purple...Tori's favourite colour.

:angelrecious Tori, you're a sweet, beautiful little Angel now. The guilty will be punished for what they did to you. Rest in peace Dear tiny child. Forever in our heart. Amen. :heartluv:

 

[swedie]

I mostly agree, Macright, but, there are so many sociopaths/psychopaths that never, ever reveal where their victims are buried, give any details whatsoever, and their loved ones die not knowing any details and never having any closure whatsoever.

So, for whatever her motivation, at least she offered some semblance of a human emotion in bringing Tori home for her loved ones, because as we have seen thus far, Rafferty was not going to offer them that.

JMO

AND HE WAS THERE AT THE SCENE AND HIS DEFENSE IS NOT DENYING THAT. It was not TLM who told him where to drive, uh uh, not buy that carp, it's absurb to say the least moo.

 

[Ardy]

JMO, TLM did far more than simply change her story a couple of times.

Prior to the abduction of VS, TLM wrote in letters and her journal of her desre to commit crimes, with many details exactly as they were committed in this case. A coincidence?

Through her lawyer, she stated her desire to help find the body and plead guilty to the crime to help the family. She then proceeded to lie to them during the Agreed Statement of Facts at her sentencing hearing. While she sobbed, whimpered and wept, she accused MR of killing VS...........and all the time knowing that she was the real killer and she was lying to a grieving family.

She allowed the family, LE, and the Crown believe that story, until Jan 2012 and then confessed to killing VS. Why the sudden sense of honour after all that time had passed? Maybe because she didn't know if LE had recovered the hammer or not, but she knew there would only be 1 set of fingerprints on it........and those would be hers?

I remember reading an article where her lawyer described how she and TLM wept together over the case. And yet, through all the tears, TLM didn't confess to killing VS. She allowed her lawyer to believe that MR did it. Was that a sign of true remorse?

After she was sent to jail...........TLM told a family member that it was unfortunate that a little girl was involved, but she had no real regrets and would do it again.

TLM is insane. She has no moral sense and is incapable of remorse. The only thing she cares about is her own survival, and she lies and manipulates to accomplish that goal.

She changed her story on who decided to buy the hammer.

Why did she think it necessary to buy a hammer and garbage bags?

After all this........people still want to believe parts of her story?

Other than her story, we don't know what they did at that location. Perhaps they all walked around the area for a bathroom break. We may get a better sense when the defense begins it version of events.

Knowing the surroundings doesn't make TLM any more trustworthy in my opinion.

 

[swedie]

I agree, Flipflop.

Everyone can see exactly what the jury did today, here on this 4:53 minute video walk around, with the CBC video.

There is no commentating, be the judge yourself.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/02/stafford-jury-scene-visit.html

Thank you for that video WG. IMO one cannot know what is at the top of that lane way until you are there. It's pretty evident in this video. Of course unless you had been there previously. Again, why would anyone risked going up there not knowing where it leads to. I have a sneaking suspicion MR had been here before.:moo:

 

[snoofer]

actually MR was either just arrested or still out there at that time so we really don't know when or if he would have broken down and relayed to LE where they had left her body.. remember when TLM revealed this info it was after she had informed LE that MR had done the actual murder and that she was following his orders and demands so I am guessing in her warped brain she thought she would get off lightly...I really don't think she cared one way or another about the child nor her parents..

perhaps he could help with the whereabouts of the car seat, dufflebag ie hammer and shoes etc, the car wash they used..maybe LE could even take him on a helicopter ride so he can point them out :maddening::twocents:

 

[maxfactor]

perhaps he could help with the whereabouts of the car seat, dufflebag ie hammer and shoes etc, the car wash they used..maybe LE could even take him on a helicopter ride so he can point them out :maddening::twocents:

Exactly snoofer!!! If he didn't sexually assault Tori or kill her where is all the evidence? If the car seat has no evidence of sexual assault by him you'd think it would have been a good idea for him to tell LE where it is. Instead he left everyone wondering why he took it out...

 

[snoofer]

Oh, she denied that too.


http://www2.canada.com/story.html?id=6348070

victim, smokes, drugs, coffee/tea....all the addictions covered :twocents:

 

[Jezbel]

actually MR was either just arrested or still out there at that time so we really don't know when or if he would have broken down and relayed to LE where they had left her body.. remember when TLM revealed this info it was after she had informed LE that MR had done the actual murder and that she was following his orders and demands so I am guessing in her warped brain she thought she would get off lightly...I really don't think she cared one way or another about the child nor her parents..

I don't think it had anything to do with her thinking she would get off lightly, she pleaded guilty to first degree murder, she gave up her right to trial and was sentenced. If she were thinking she would get off lightly we would also be sitting through her trial.

Jmo

 

[snoofer]

Did MR buy her a juice? I thought he only bought TLM a tea?

well if something was bought for TS it should show in the register tape of that day.:twocents: So I would assume if we don't see anything it didn't happen...we shall have to wait and see.

 

[snoofer]

RaffertyLFP:
McClintic said Rafferty told him he lived on Tennyson - cared for his sick mother - she was never in his house.

good grief JMO

 

[Jezbel]

Well, technically, TLM's "help" didn't result in finding Tori. Ultimately, it was MTR's phone usage that did. That's what put Smyth on the right trail and it was only after he found Tori's remains that it was confirmed that the surroundings matched TLM's description.



http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/30/19573966.html

Obviously, I'm not giving MTR any credit for this, but only pointing out that it took another two months and that extra info to actually locate Tori. Since I believe that TLM had her own motives for "helping", she gets zero credit, IMHO.

“I took a good look at the house and quite frankly, was struck by similarities,” he testified, standing in the witness box.

Smyth said he then drove up a rural laneway by the house and found an area with evergreen trees and a 12- to 15-metre rock pile — exactly what McClintic had described in previous police interviews and in drawings supplied to investigators.

http://http://www.nationalpost.com/...nding-tori-staffords-remains-in-a-garbage-bag

Smyth found that laneway because of the house IMO, according to the article and from my recollection of hearing him testify.*

JMO*

 

[snoofer]

RaffertyLFP:
McClintic identifies a letter she wrote to Rafferty after she was in the detention centre [via Twitter

Do we know what was in letter yet? IMO

 

[Jezbel]

RaffertyLFP:
McClintic identifies a letter she wrote to Rafferty after she was in the detention centre [via Twitter

Do we know what was in letter yet? IMO

I think it was the 'love' letter lol