Trial Thread 8 May 2012 Wrapping up Closing Arguments

[matou]

Most importantly, perhaps, Mr. Gowdey pointed out that if Ms. McClintic is the killer as she now claims, then by that account there had to have been a sexual assault, because it was the violent rape of the little girl which she said acted as the trigger for her murderous explosion of rage about her own abuse.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...nder-in-tori-stafford-murder-prosecutor-says/

 

[brighidin]

But he did have one in his trunk. And one of his lady friends testified to helping him install speakers in the back. So he was obviously in the process of it.



JMO

I've got stuff in my trunk too. Doesn't mean that stuff is in my back seat.

I haven't seen anything that makes it "obvious" he was in the process of anything. link? thanks.

 

[maxfactor]

Put MR is the same scenario if he is found guilty, and watch people howl..............

JMO.........

If Mr gets put in general population he'll be the one howling.....just saying. I don't believe that TLM is in minimum security or living in the campus style housing. I'm quite sure that she will be in the maximum security part of the jail for a good number of years.

 

[matou]

The jurors have three ways to find Mr. Rafferty guilty of first-degree murder, Mr. Gowdey reminded them – that he was a principal or a party to a killing that was planned and deliberate, or that Tori’s death took place in the course of the kidnapping or during the course of a sexual assault.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...nder-in-tori-stafford-murder-prosecutor-says/

 

[gardenia]

ITA, murder is the ultimate "bad thing". The way I am thinking is that the murder is a definite, can't be questioned, Tori is dead. I think as a parent that is obviously the worse thing that could ever happen but if a rape also happened then IMO that is adding insult to injury. It would be even worse, much like if she had been tied up for days and tortured before ultimately being killed. If it were my child and the murder was a given then I could only hope it was quick and my child didn't suffer. I have to admit I have considered the evidence of the rape in what to me is a reasonable manner and have come up with reasonable IMO doubt. There is no physical evidence of rape. IMO sperm fractions can be attributed to having had sex in the car and there is evidence of Tori's blood in several places in the car and one splatter seems to have IMO landed on a sperm fraction. As I am writing this I can just imagine the responses, please refrain, I have read all the posts I understand your position but in my mind this is reasonable. As far as her being without her skirt and tights, I really don't know, again any speculation on my part would just be repeating previous posts from others that have been ridiculed and dismissed but again in my mind it does not mean a rape. If there had been evidence showing a predilection for young girls, maybe *advertiser censored* or communication I would think differently but that is not the case. I think the horror of the murder is enough without the rape and IMO it has not been proven, therefore, I choose to believe it did not happen. JMO

I couldn't agree more ... thanks for your well-written, well-thought out post!

 

[Wondergirl]

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said decomposition did not allow for evidence of sexual assault - because body was so well hidden

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said the remote location - far from anything made it hard to find body

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said police never found many pieces of evidence murder weapon clothes - back seat - all destroyed by Rafferty and McClintic

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey's says Rafferty was driving his car - he was in charge, McClintic did not even drive - makes no sense unless U are part of team

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey's says McClintic was able to draw very accurate map of the crime scene - sincerely trying to help

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic was fully cooperating with police but had trouble finding the crime scene

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey says the evidence of sexual assault is Tori's body naked from waist down and her DNA on Rafferty's gym bag

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey recounts McClintic's testimony of the sexual assault

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey recounts McClintic's testimony that Tori asked for her help - Gowdey says detail could not be invented and makes McClintic look bad

RaffertyLFP: "You could not make that up" says Gowdey

McClintic said there was blood on the snow after Tori went to the washroom. She then walked her back to Rafferty.

McClintic left, she knew what was about to happen, again, to Tori.

McClintic said during the second sex assault, she was looking out into the field.

Gowdey says those details cant make McClintic look worse as a human being. "You do not make that up".

These tweets summarize some intrinsic points made by the Crown, about how vile the details were that TLM testified to here about herself, that a person would simply not make them up.

I agree.

 

[matou]

As Mr. Gowdey spoke, often with video, photographs or drawings rolling on courtroom monitors, Mr. Rafferty in the prisoner’s box frequently muttered under his breath (inaudibly but noticeably) and occasionally even rolled his eyes skyward. Mr. Rafferty was the “leader of this operation,” Mr. Gowdey said, Ms. McClintic “his violent pawn.” But make no mistake, the prosecutor repeatedly warned, “these two were partners completely…don’t let either one of them fool you.”

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...nder-in-tori-stafford-murder-prosecutor-says/

 

[Kittymama]

is it possible that the Crown had many objections to what the defence was going to present? Maybe this contributed to why the defence hardly put up a case for MTR's innocence?

I don't know; I've been wondering that, myself. I don't think so, though, as most of the legal arguments seemed to come up when the Crown was presenting their case.

 

[jolady]

Could you please point out where exactly I diminished your post? I only was stating my opinion, and saying sometimes common sense has to be used. I didn't specify who's, I didn't reference your post at all! Sorry, but I am entitled to my opinion just as you are to yours. I don't believe I have diminished your posts in any way, in fact I can't recall even quoting your posts!

You quoted TMHCO's post which quoted mine and was in response to mine. When you are saying "common sense has to be used" the inference is that it wasn't used when I stated that I believed a rape did not occur. Perhaps you should read back and maybe it will make more sense to you how I came to this conclusion.

 

[AbbeyR]

But the details in her first story were so singularly self-immolating, Mr. Gowdey suggested, that they ring true. He noted how, in her recantation, when she was claiming to be the killer, Ms. McClintic switched to “the passive voice” – saying, for instance, “a garbage bag was placed over the head,” or “she was struck by the hammer,” or “the body was moved.”

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...osecutor-says/

This is interesting. I have always believed her first confession based on similar observations about her changes in speech patterns -- For example, certain details of her first account just did not seem to me to be the kind of details that she would have invented. The blood on the snow. The sound of garbage bags rustling in the wind. Her bodily movements, when she tried to describe the position that MR and VS were in when he raped her, etc. When she changed her testimony the descriptions became things like "I savagely murdered that little girl". Dramatic, but no detail.

In the end, it doesn't matter who delivered the final blows, but it is an interesting and odd part of this case that is difficult to make sense of.

 

[nettie_82]

You quoted TMHCO's post which quoted mine and was in response to mine. When you are saying "common sense has to be used" the inference is that it wasn't used when I stated that I believed a rape did not occur. Perhaps you should read back and maybe it will make more sense to you how I came to this conclusion.

Sorry if it appears that way, but I was actually commenting on on TMHCO's post alone. There was a time when there was no DNA and people had to use common sense in trials. IMO, sometimes we have a need to have DNA to back EVERYTHING up, now that we do have it. My entire point is this, maybe at times we need to use good old common sense...whoever's that may be!!!! I wish I could remember who posted about this previously in this trial, but it was an excellent post and it would be worth reposting if I had the time to go back through millions of posts here since the beginning of March and find it.

All JMO.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3556134

Rafferty often seemed agitated during Gowdey’s presentation, rolling his eyes and mouthing words.

Was he mouthing words or mouthing words at Gowdy? Either way it shows that MTR has a hard time managing his emotions. But I was wondering what would have happened if Gowdy would have looked MTR in the eyes while he was having one of his fits?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

If Mr gets put in general population he'll be the one howling.....just saying. I don't believe that TLM is in minimum security or living in the campus style housing. I'm quite sure that she will be in the maximum security part of the jail for a good number of years.

I hope that she ends up in solitary. Wouldn't she have a target on her back after testifying that she murdered Tori?

 

[Tahorn]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...osecutor-says/

This is interesting. I have always believed her first confession based on similar observations about her changes in speech patterns -- For example, certain details of her first account just did not seem to me to be the kind of details that she would have invented. The blood on the snow. The sound of garbage bags rustling in the wind. Her bodily movements, when she tried to describe the position that MR and VS were in when he raped her, etc. When she changed her testimony the descriptions became things like "I savagely murdered that little girl". Dramatic, but no detail.

In the end, it doesn't matter who delivered the final blows, but it is an interesting and odd part of this case that is difficult to make sense of.

That part always bothered me, from the pics of the back of MR car it seems like an awkward position to be in when trying to control a child you are raping ... And if he was in that position then why no DNA on the front seat (where tlm and MR dna found) it seems like a natural place the give you leverage, as well as this being the second rape one would think VS Blood would be on his hands.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I don't know; I've been wondering that, myself. I don't think so, though, as most of the legal arguments seemed to come up when the Crown was presenting their case.

I think you're right and maybe that is good thing as far as appeals go. The defence can't argue that they had this, that or the other thing and it wasn't allowed, YKWIM?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I don't want this to happen, but if they are granted an appeal they won't have any feedback from the jury in this trial since the jury is not allowed to discuss their deliberations, right?

 

[tmhco]

You quoted TMHCO's post which quoted mine and was in response to mine. When you are saying "common sense has to be used" the inference is that it wasn't used when I stated that I believed a rape did not occur. Perhaps you should read back and maybe it will make more sense to you how I came to this conclusion.

Then I am the one you should be mad at. I am sorry if you are upset. I get upset when I think of what poor VS went thru and I do not understand what exactly people think happened to her.

1. Female children are not taken to settle drug debts.
2. We have no idea what MR has done in his past nor does it matter. TLM gave him his fantasy.
3. She was found in a remote location known to him.
4. She had no panties, tights, shoes or coat.
5. TLM testified he raped her in graphic details.
6. He gave her the money to buy the hammer
7. He threw away his back seat
8. He parked far from the school
7. VS blood mixed with a sperm faction
8. VS blood mixed with his blood on gym bag.
9. He did not want VS found.

I could go and on. I want justice for ALL OF IT!

You have every right to your opinion but posting here is a way to knock ideas and theories around. JMO

 

[AbbeyR]

There is most likely evidence that was successfully suppressed by the defence, so I guess we'll find out more when the jury is sequestered. I say "most likely" because there were a LOT of legal arguments, and I expect they pertained to evidence that the defence didn't want admitted. Not sure what else it could be...any thoughts (anyone)?

I am still very curious to know whether there was more internet evidence that was not allowed in this trial. I expected a "youtube" chapter, based on some early (and very convincing) speculation...

 

[robynhood]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...nder-in-tori-stafford-murder-prosecutor-says/

those were the exact words I copied from London court room today via tweeter ...the reporter was "quoting what was said by crown lawyers "as videos flashed on monitor with the evidence in court room...example M.R. honda car on video...exact foresenic evidence collected by pathologists ....tori's remains( graphic pictures ) were even shown to jury ...graphic !!!...tweeter was warning the evidence was disturbing.....than tweeter said while it was being flashed ....Micheal Raffety was CLOSING HIS EYES....staring at ceiling of court room....shall I get more graphic...tweet said he was supressing...YAWNS even....hard to tweet everything said as 5 come in at same time ....just posted here tweeter difficulty ....no one can keep up the exact pass of what you see on tweeter .....they are not reporter comments ...again they are " quotES" from Crown and what is seen live in court room monitors of evidence reported ....lots more shall definitely come out....after verdict ...GUARenteed...hope this gives you all an actaully feel as to what we are seeing in tweeter.....???....robynhood..

 

[daisy.faithfull]

MTR was having relations with many, many women, his car had its own little condom dispenser. His car could have been his whatever place since he probably couldn't take women to his moms. I'm kind of surprised that there weren't many DNA samples in the backseat which could possibly be an indication that he did clean his backseat.