two questions

[Nehemiah]

All in all its possible the staging bought them time. Time regroup and lawyer up, initially they were probably going to fly away and go to ground, issuing press releases, and if it got scary just flee the country. But circumstance forced them to remain and once they both realized that neither could be charged individually then they started to play the legal game, along with image building.

Good ideas here. Can you go into more detail about what you mean when you said "initially they were probably going to fly away and go to ground, issuing press releases, and if it got scary just flee the country."?

 

[BrotherMoon]

John wasn't involved in any of it, until Patsy screamed and handed him the note.

Everything done to JonBenet was for Patsy's benefit by Patsy herself.

The note was written by Patsy, for Patsy.

There was no staging for police.

 

[sissi]

BM You are probably so right in your profile of the killer, but I do doubt it's Patsy. She really isn't that deep, nor that religious, she's pretty superficial by what I've observed. I do not think "adambomb" on the other forum has the right person ,either, however I think he's very close to profiling the same type as you, ya' just both have the wrong guy. I sent mail (if you haven't been over yonder) to read about Mitchell's mentor.

 

[UKGuy]

"initially they were probably going to fly away and go to ground, issuing press releases, and if it got scary just flee the country."?

Off the top of my head John had arranged to fly out of Colorado, about 20 minutes after her body was found - leaving JonBenet's body lying in the morgue?
PMPT pp 35. paraphrasing ...
Fleet White said around 3:00PM he had called the Ramsey's Pilot to cancel a flight to Atlanta which John Ramsey had made arrangements for ....

So if we try to put ourselves inside his head that day. Here we have a man who feels so in control of an ongoing homicide investigation concerning his own daughter, he intends to leave it behind as soon as possible. How can we explain this?

John is an intelligent man, he knew Jonbenet's body lying dead somewhere in the house, meant the blame would land on the parents shoulders. He likely reckoned that the staging could only buy time not exculpate them.

So imagine John stressed and thinking fast that day. He calculated his chances of not being mired in a homicide investigation, even possibly arrested lay in leaving the crime scene as soon as possible!

A hint that this formed part of his strategy lies in him having Burke removed at the first opportunity, here Fleet White assisted as he did in other matters.

So the plan was to fly to Atlanta, and obviously take things from there. Obviously they could not become incommunicado so its likely Press Releases would be used to influence public opinion. And as a last resort if all that failed they would flee the country using their luxury boat or plane.

Others who have a better understanding of the Ramsey plane inventory may be able to enlarge upon this.

All this does not mean John Ramsey is a guilty man, only one who is concerned with the freedom and survival of himself and his family. To this end he achieved his aims.

 

[BrotherMoon]

John Ramsey had nothing to do with the "staging". He had nothing to do with the crime.

Inside his head; he found the body at 11 am. and kept quiet because 2+2=4. He didn't want to get to 4, so he didn't add the twos. He carried his dead daughter up the way he did because he distanced himself from her for the same reason. He wanted to get of Dodge for the same reason. It's called repression, not strategy. The only reason his wife isn't in the mental hospital ward of a prison and he isn't up for obstruction of justice is the Boulder culture of New Age institutional naivete and the moral ambiguity of the Law Industry.

 

[Nehemiah]

Thanks, UK Guy. I understand what you mean now. Good thoughts.

BMoon, what would make John stay with Patsy all these years? Why not get the heck out of Dodge with Burke? Even if Patsy would not harm Burke, what kind of influence would she have over him....for John to remain in their present marital state?

 

[BrotherMoon]

1) why did Patsy write such a weird, long ransom note. Everyone knows they'll compare handwriting samples....why would she write such a lengthy one

The note was written by Patsy, for Patsy. All of the content has meaning. It establishes her identity as one of the small faction. It establishes her dispute with "John". That dispute is resolved by the transference of the ransom. That responsibility and the responsibility of the return of "daughter" is sluffed off from Patsy to "John". Everything in the note has meaning to Patsy and a symbolic reference to the inner workings of Patsy's mind. JonBenet is not mentioned because the note has nothing to do with JonBenet, "daughter" is Patsy, "John" is God. The author of the note was a split-off persona complex centered around the image of Sandy Stranger.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Thanks, UK Guy. I understand what you mean now. Good thoughts.

BMoon, what would make John stay with Patsy all these years? Why not get the heck out of Dodge with Burke? Even if Patsy would not harm Burke, what kind of influence would she have over him....for John to remain in their present marital state?

How many examples of women staying with abusive men are there? Why do they do it? My answer is they don't want to admit their situation to themselves as it would destroy their self image, all is lost. It is called repression.

 

[Nehemiah]

what would make John stay with Patsy all these years? Why not get the heck out of Dodge with Burke? Even if Patsy would not harm Burke, what kind of influence would she have over him....for John to remain in their present marital state?

Not Patsy stay with John...

 

[Camper]

Not Patsy stay with John...

------------>>>Why would any husband stay with his wife after their child in murdered. I rephrased it to be more of a general situation, rather than an accusatory thing aimed at the Ramseys. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

SO why would a husband stay with a wife who may have covered/staged false information on the murder of their child.

1. Because the wife covered for an older son/son, who did it, saving the family from humiliation, and saving the son from going to jail for years.
2. Because the wife covered for the both of them who may have jointly been involved in the sexual abuse of 'the child'.
3. Perhaps because the wife covered for the husband, who had a major hand in the murder of the 'child', and she loved him and wanted to keep the family intact. Perhaps guilt for not providing wifely comfort for the husband in the biblical sense. Perhaps she felt it was partly her fault for not providing that comfort to her husband.


We see marriages often break up because of the death of a child, either the child has been murdered or did die from a terrible health problem.

A horrible murder of ones child takes a terrible toll on the parents. Strong people deeply in love would seem to be most likely to stay with one another. I have no statistics on that, just a guess on my part.

Speculative opinion, and my opinion expressed in response to Nehemiahs question.




.

 

[LinasK]

Rather than ask why John Ramsey found the body, why not ask why the body was not seen earlier in the day when that door was opened to the room she was later found in.
And then ask just what the he** John Ramsey was doing for so long down in the basement around ten a.m. or so that morning and why he didn't tell anyone he was down there in that basement for so long. And then ask why he told Stewart Long, his daughter's fiance, that he found the body around 11 a.m. that morning.
Why did he then WAIT for 2 hours before rushing right to that room?
Keep in mind that Det. Linda Arndt noted that John Ramsey acted considerably more distraught after he came back up from the basement that morning. (When it was reported he went out to get the mail - but John R. said no, he was downstairs in the basement)



The staging backfired as it nearly always does. Particularly when it's an amaeture that is trying to act like she/he thinks a real criminal acts.

My take on John carrying her up the stairs, was to muddy the evidence, fingerprints on the body and fiber evidence. I think he killed JBR and Patsy helped cover for him!

 

[Camper]

LinasK, your post popped a NEW thought into my head.

What IF IF Patsy hollered for JOHN upon 'finding ? the note', and by the time he came downstairs, she already had the police on the phone?????? He sees and hears the trauma, runs back upstairs to get dressed, then comes down and is checking the note when the police arrive, err something close to that???

I do not remember when the 'friends' were called, that had to take a fair amount of time to do.

He just may have been in the dark so to speak, and went looking around when no one was looking??

Hmmm.



.

 

[AuntieKaren]

1) if the Ramseys killed JBR why did John find the body? why didn't he let LE find it?

2) if the Ramseys killed JBR why did Patsy write such a weird, long ransom note. Everyone knows they'll compare handwriting samples....why would she write such a lengthy one

2 excellent questions and part of the reason I have never believed either one murdered their baby.
Karen

 

[BrotherMoon]

Not Patsy stay with John...

Women stay with sociopathic men and men stay with sociopathic women for similar reasons. There are more examples of the former to draw apon.

 

[Kaly]

bwelch,
The CBI's handwriting experts eliminated John as the writer and came close to eliminating Patsy, but they couldn't eliminate Burke.

Could you provide a reference for that information? Thanks,
Kaly

 

[TLynn]

John had to find the body - the police were too inept to do so. After 10 am came and left with no phone call for Ransom - the nightmare had to end. So, the first opportunity he had (Arndt), John found the body - headed straight to it. Didn't start checking upstairs first, JonBenet's bedroom - no, he headed straight for the cellar.

The rn had to be convincing and rambled on - covering all the bases. Stating who they were, what they wanted, was to be done, the threats if it wasn't done - and a little bit of "inside" info to make it seem like they had been targeted.

Basically, it worked.

Why stay together? Patsy had cancer - it's scarey to be alone when you're fighting for your life. She had another child to take care of - John had already lost Beth, now JonBenet...

It's horrific to think one/two/three of the Ramseys are involved - but the "pineapple" has never been explained with an intruder theory - not even Smit - the biggest intruder theorist there is - can explain the pineapple.

 

[UKGuy]

It's horrific to think one/two/three of the Ramseys are involved - but the "pineapple" has never been explained with an intruder theory - not even Smit - the biggest intruder theorist there is - can explain the pineapple.

TLynn:

The pineapple and an intruder could fit together. As long as the intruder, "intrudes" after JonBenet snacks the pineapple.

The pineapple helps to tell when JonBenet was alive, and "possibly" with whom, but not conclusively. So it suggests an implicit timeframe that may or may not exclude other scenarios due to their specific nature.

One interesting aspect to the pineapple session is that there only appeared to be two persons involved. Now if the Ramseys had company you might expect a few more dirty cups and glasses to be lying about? Now since both Patsy and John are amnesic regarding the pineapple, we can assume they did not stage it. So it may be indirect evidence that there was probably only three people in the Ramsey household that fateful night. Unless of course you factor in the Intruder who possibly arrives later at some unknown point.

 

[Camper]

My memory seems to recall that the invited friends on the 26th, busied themselves by washing dishes in the kitchen.

Anyone have the documentation for my memory? Was that in Steve Thomas book, OR?

I cannot remember IF there was pineapple left in the smaller bowl that was NOT eaten, anyone??



.

 

[jayla]

After 8 years, I can't believe how deeply we all still feel about our "gut feelings" regarding this case. Maybe I'm judgemental but I have always felt they were guilty, As for the ransom note, to me, it just screams Patsy. Why do I think so? This woman does everything over the top. There is no such thing as enough. We had Christmas trees in every room (to John's chagrin). Our beautiful little girl isn't quite beautiful enough...we have to tease and bleach and tape and dress in vegas showgirl costumes. Look at the home decor...ribbons and bows and florals and chintz everywhere almost to the point of being jarring to the senses instead of pleasing. We not only get cancer, (and don't think I'm making it trivial, I lost my husband at age 33 to it), We get the most lethal, agressive type of cancer, and we are so unique, so blessed, that God chooses to save us for something special...Oh, you guys get the picture...sigh...

 

[TLynn]

UK Guy - "As long as the intruder, "intrudes" after JonBenet snacks the pineapple."

You kinda answered your own statement - none of the Ramseys claim to know anything about the pineapple.

So, an intruder (known to the JonBenet), after sneaking into the house, had pineapple with her....?