GUILTY TX - Scott Hartman for child sexual abuse, Bexar County, 2009

[Missizzy]

I know you know Vespa....just helping out others who might not get it. BTW, due to the lapse left by the vanished poster, it was hard to tell what exactly was going on.

And snick...(((hugs))) from me.

 

[kbl8201]

i think stepdad knew he could use the kids problems to his advantage if he ever told.

i guess he didnt count on the little girl telling to

 

[ihatestupidpeople]

VespaElf--I'm appalled by the rudeness of the new but now vanished poster, but I did want to answer your very important question. Lying and vindictiveness are very real disorders of childhood. They fall under Conduct Disorder in the DSM-IV for children. After the age of 18, they morph into Anti-social Personality Disorder. They are typically under the umbrella of Severe Emotional Disturbance in the educational arena.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, it is not unheard of for children to engage in "crazy" lying nor to be vindictive (also a component of Oppositional Defiant Disorder). If this little boy is diagnosed with either of these disorders, it is highly possible that he has a history of lying. This type of lying is easily sorted out, though, by professionals who work with these kids.

First off I want to say thanks to Missizzy for hitting it right on the nail here. The child has both Bi-polar and ODD which in most cases turns into CD as the grow up. Second I love how my post got deleted but everyone who call the mother all kinds of evil things is still up. Third I didn't vanish, its been less then 24 hours since that post. Just because I have a life and don't sit here to wait for each of your posts doesn't mean I'm not around. Forth, I never called lying and vindictiveness disorders I said "disorders whose symptoms include".

And to answer some of the questions I saw about the time line here you go.

First, the child was grounded from boy scouts for getting suspended from school for the 5th week in a row. His first day back he made the outcry. Cps did investigate BTW. Then he scratched his own neck on the way to school and claimed the mother had done it. She was arrested and the kids taken into custody. The stepfather wasn't arrested until it was mentioned in court about him being a scout master which pissed off the children's lawyer for some reason. I'm 98% sure that's the only reason he was arrested. There fishing for more "people" to come forward because there so called concrete evidence doesn't exist, and last but not least. The 4 yr old girl says yes to anything you ask. including "Did you build the great wall?" The mention about corercen makes a lot of sense when you take into all the facts. Which is what I was saying too do in the first place. Everyone here jumped on the mom calling her all kinds of evil things and me I stand up for her.

 

[ihatestupidpeople]

oh and I forgot to mention the reason this child was suspended so many times...in the beginning of the school year mind you...was for these reasons; kicking a teacher, scratching a teacher, over turning his desk, throwing things across the room...etc

 

[ihatestupidpeople]

The 4 yr old girl says yes to anything you ask. including "Did you build the great wall?"

There is your answer. Right in my post.

 

[kbl8201]

you seem to have answers for everything.

everyone's lying or just going along to get along.

 

[Penelope]

First off I want to say thanks to Missizzy for hitting it right on the nail here. The child has both Bi-polar and ODD which in most cases turns into CD as the grow up. Second I love how my post got deleted but everyone who call the mother all kinds of evil things is still up. Third I didn't vanish, its been less then 24 hours since that post. Just because I have a life and don't sit here to wait for each of your posts doesn't mean I'm not around. Forth, I never called lying and vindictiveness disorders I said "disorders whose symptoms include".

And to answer some of the questions I saw about the time line here you go.

First, the child was grounded from boy scouts for getting suspended from school for the 5th week in a row. His first day back he made the outcry. Cps did investigate BTW. Then he scratched his own neck on the way to school and claimed the mother had done it. She was arrested and the kids taken into custody. The stepfather wasn't arrested until it was mentioned in court about him being a scout master which pissed off the children's lawyer for some reason. I'm 98% sure that's the only reason he was arrested. There fishing for more "people" to come forward because there so called concrete evidence doesn't exist, and last but not least. The 4 yr old girl says yes to anything you ask. including "Did you build the great wall?" The mention about corercen makes a lot of sense when you take into all the facts. Which is what I was saying too do in the first place. Everyone here jumped on the mom calling her all kinds of evil things and me I stand up for her.

Ihatestupidpeople -- I am new to this thread and have to ask you -- how do you know this information? Are you a member of the boy's family? A close friend? An employee of the school? In local law enforcement? The mother's legal spokesperson? Also-- Can you cite the source of the information you have volunteered? If so, please do so.

I am not totally clear about the protocol, but I suggest you should contact the owner of this site, Tricia, or one of the moderators to confirm in private who you are.

Note from Moderator: Yes, Ihatestupidpeople should contact Tricia to verify their relationship to this case.

 

[stilettos]

She didn't just slap him she left bruises. What is wrong with her? I hope he is never in her custody again. All children deserve to be believed. I have dealt with the situation in my life and lost a 10+ year friendship because I believed my child. I have heard of a situation where a child did lie, or at least the court aquitted a man who was accused of sexually abusing a teen ager. In this case the girl had emotional problems and was resentful of her mom's new boyfriend. He was in jail for nearly a year until the trial and then released. Even then I was appaled that the mother didn't defend her child and choose to stick by her boyfriend. I would always take my childs side and err on the side of caution. I would rather be wrong and believe the child then be wrong and not believe the child.

Always, always err on the side of the child.

 

[Salem]

There is your answer. Right in my post.

ihatestupidpeople - if you will be posting as an insider to this case or as someone "in the know" so to speak, you need to contact the owner of Websleuths, Tricia. Her contact info is as follows: Tricia Griffith tgrif@xmission.com

You may just send her an email and Tricia will respond. It is Websleuth policy that insiders to a case be vetted to insure they are who they say they are.

If you choose not to contact Tricia, you may continue to post but you must include links to the source of your information or clearly state that your information is rumor/speculation or theory.

Let me know if you have any questions,

Thanks,

Salem

 

[stilettos]

oh and I forgot to mention the reason this child was suspended so many times...in the beginning of the school year mind you...was for these reasons; kicking a teacher, scratching a teacher, over turning his desk, throwing things across the room...etc

Maybe you are unaware that these behaviors could also indicate some form of abuse. The child needed help...as parents it is our responsibility and honor to get help for them. The Mother should have done so instead of bruising her own child. MOO

 

[Missizzy]

Let me clarify my point with ihatestupidpeople. I am validating that children with special needs can most certainly lie to excess. The simple fact is that they can also tell the truth.

It might be in this child's best interest to be placed in a specialized treatment home where he can benefit from a therapeutic milieu. Most likely this will be the outcome if the parent is found to have abused the child.

ihatestupidpeople, I have a question. Has this child ever made a sexual abuse outcry against any other adult which was found to be inaccurate? Once again I have to reiterate my position that many children with behavioral challenges can lie but few are known to make false sexual abuse reports.

I'm hoping that you are in contact with Tricia to verify your position to speak for this family.

 

[kbl8201]

i think the fact that there are ready made excuses for both kids accusations makes it harder for me to understand......i dont get how the little girl would just say 'oh sure he molested me'. come on

 

[Missizzy]

Another factor to be considered in this case is that judges look at consistency of children's disclosures. If you go back and read through the news articles on this case you will see that this child disclosed to a school counselor and then again to a specialized "treatment" foster parent. It appears the young girl also disclosed to the foster parent. My assumption is that as soon as the children disclosed, they would have been taken to the local Children's Advocacy Center, inter-viewed, video-taped, and examined. LE knows exactly what is needed for a conviction. There is typically a grand jury convened to view the evidence at hand. Obviously, there's been a "true bill" on this case or it would not be moving forward. If the child is making up whoppers, the story will not hold up, IMO, with so many trained professionals working with the children.

And ITA, that many of these same behaviors can be highly exacerbated by ongoing abuse. It will be interesting to see how the children fare in a treatment home.

 

[Missizzy]

You are correct, kbl, it would be rare for a four year old to disclose sexual abuse without the abuse occurring. LE are video-taped while they are interviewing the child so as to prove to the defense that the children were not asked leading questions. Most likely they would have asked very open-ended questions about the child's life and allowed her to simply tell what happened. They do not just sit a kid down and say, "Did you Dad touch your privates?"

They start out by making the child comfortable--talking about favorite toys and foods and getting to know the child. Some kids get into the treatment rooms and blurt out their secrets but others need a little time. LE might ask if anything scary or upsetting has happened at home or school lately. A four year old (we're talking barely past toddlerhood, here) would not just pop off with "Daddy hurt my bottom", unless it was a huge event in the child's life. No way.

 

[kbl8201]

i wonder if its stuff like this that got samantha runions killer off on earlier charges

 

[CHICANA]

You are correct, kbl, it would be rare for a four year old to disclose sexual abuse without the abuse occurring. LE are video-taped while they are interviewing the child so as to prove to the defense that the children were not asked leading questions. Most likely they would have asked very open-ended questions about the child's life and allowed her to simply tell what happened. They do not just sit a kid down and say, "Did you Dad touch your privates?"

They start out by making the child comfortable--talking about favorite toys and foods and getting to know the child. Some kids get into the treatment rooms and blurt out their secrets but others need a little time. LE might ask if anything scary or upsetting has happened at home or school lately. A four year old (we're talking barely past toddlerhood, here) would not just pop off with "Daddy hurt my bottom", unless it was a huge event in the child's life. No way.

It sounds like the little girl disclosed to the foster parents. When the little boy disclosed, shouldn't LE have had the little girl questioned in one of those controlled settings you described ? Abuse could be a reason for his behaviors but they could have also been brought on by stressors.
Where is his bio-dad ? I'm anxious to hear from others who knew this man, I wonder if anyone else was suspicious.

 

[sniperacer]

I find all this difficult to understand. We're trying to apply "normal" kid behavior to kids who may or may not be "normal". We have all been around a lot of kids, but without knowing these kids, it is impossible for anyone to know what happend for sure.

 

[Texas Mist]

I find all this difficult to understand. We're trying to apply "normal" kid behavior to kids who may or may not be "normal". We have all been around a lot of kids, but without knowing these kids, it is impossible for anyone to know what happend for sure.

We may not know what happened for sure, however, Hartman was arrested after the children disclosed "graphic details" per the video & the abuse wasn't a single occurrence (lasted for years)...the little girl said "no" but Harman didn't stop.

The mom was arrested for physically abusing the little boy as well....she wouldn't be the first 'mom' to say the kids weren't telling the truth & "ruining her life"....ask mikeysmommom....she's posted she's going the thru same situation w/ her g-kids right now....she was even told those same words by the kids mother -- ruining her life. ugh.

It sounds to me as tho an investigation by LE was done before both were arrested.

I have no problem believing the kids & I hope the 'mom' & step-dad never get to be near them again.

 

[Missizzy]

Chicana--You bring up a very good point. I don't think LE ever questions children who have not made a disclosure, especially a 4 year old. One of our kids disclosed over a week after the others and LE never questioned him during that time. They waited for me to tell them that he'd made a disclosure and was ready and willing to talk. He knew his siblings were talking but he wasn't ready.

Children can make a disclosure and be taken to the Advocacy Center but are never forced to talk if they are uncomfortable. I've heard anecdotally of several who have needed two or three visits to feel comfortable. Most children start out very small and say sort of veiled things like, "I've been mad at Daddy" and "Daddy says we have a special secret" and then they change the subject so that they can watch your reaction.

I had never seen a disclosure video before I watched our children's in court and they are excruciatingly and painstakingly slow. Occasionally a child will blurt things out and be very open but not usually. Because a camera is running and LE knows the defense will go over the interview with a fine tooth comb, they are very careful. So many children have been threatened and are terrified of the repercussions.

A disclosure by a four year old to a foster parent is taken very seriously. If the foster parent is trained in working with traumatized children and also in taking disclosures (note: not asking leading questions), a disclosure is a pretty sure thing. They often come up after a child feels safe and during the natural course of a day ie during dressing, bathtime, or bedtime. Children often ache to tell but they have to feel safe. They also worry about getting someone in trouble (although I don't see that as an issue with a four year old). Four year olds are very concrete. The only way someone could get a four year old to keep a nasty secret is to threaten them, IMO. They would not grasp the subtle hints that many abusers use with older kids.

 

[CHICANA]

We may not know what happened for sure, however, Hartman was arrested after the children disclosed "graphic details" per the video & the abuse wasn't a single occurrence (lasted for years)...the little girl said "no" but Harman didn't stop.

The mom was arrested for physically abusing the little boy as well....she wouldn't be the first 'mom' to say the kids weren't telling the truth & "ruining her life"....ask mikeysmommom....she's posted she's going the thru same situation w/ her g-kids right now....she was even told those same words by the kids mother -- ruining her life. ugh.

It sounds to me as tho an investigation by LE was done before both were arrested.

I have no problem believing the kids & I hope the 'mom' & step-dad never get to be near them again.

I didn't see that, was that on one of the links posted ?