Ah okay. To me it's like he's saying they belong to her because she's the Mother. Putting this Earth-Mother type of thing on a pedestal, that she knows best above all else, even him, because she's their Mother. Comes across as sexist as well. But that's just my opinion, maybe I'm allowing my dislike of him to influence my thoughts
I think it was very early on (perhaps in the agreed facts?), it was stated that MG was the father of all 5 children. I would also imagine that DNA testing was done on V, to establish that the child was theirs - you wouldn't want the D's claiming that the child was not theirs.
I agree, it seems rather circular at the moment doesn't it? But, that maybe due to the woeful reporting. I do hope that there is better reporting for the closing arguments and the Judges summing up and directions to the jury.
One suspects a lot of it must be the reporting. We often get one snippet from an hour's worth of Q&A!
Yes live reporting is really great and frustrating at the same time.
There has previously been references to MG's mother, but not his father, could it be that MG thinks of children only in terms of having a mother, fathers playing no role other than for conception? speculation, imo
I totally agree with your post CaptainNancy, I think you made your point very well. However, I have to say that the law is not so flexible and I think that there is quite a strong possibility that the jury will find in CM's favour. it will be very interesting to see how the Endgame plays out. The tragedy of Victoria losing her life necessitates that the right verdict must be reached.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
What about if the baby is zipped into a coat with very little access to fresh, clean air and is then partially suffocated from being pinned down by an adult rolling over in their sleep with no room for them to even partially wriggle out of the way (not that infants have much control of their body position anyway - hence why co-sleeping often frowned upon due to the higher risk of babies being suffocated. And that’s in a safe, indoors warm environment.)<modsnip>
Professor Peter Fleming, an expert on infant health, considered the circumstances of how the baby died after hearing Marten’s account.
Giving evidence on Tuesday, the defence witness told jurors: “I have seen no evidence of hypothermia as a cause of death but the description of how the baby was being cared for would make hypothermia exceedingly unlikely.”
Mr Little said: “You relied on what she told you about the clothing she (Victoria) was wearing.
“If she had lied about those matters that would have an impact on your opinion?”
Prof Fleming said that a baby feeding well was not consistent with hypothermia.
“The advice would be to keep the baby in your coat.
Prof Fleming responded: “On that scenario, if the baby is inside the mother’s coat, the baby would be protected from the thermal environment.”
‘Exceedingly unlikely’ Constance Marten's baby died from cold, trial told
An expert has told jurors it was “exceedingly unlikely” fugitive mother Constance Marten’s newborn baby Victoria died from the cold.www.theargus.co.uk
Again, that is not the prosecution case.
Actually I just read back in this article that the prosecution are alleging it was either hypothermia or dangerous co-sleeping
www.independent.co.uk
They chose those circumstancesActually I just read back in this article that the prosecution are alleging it was either hypothermia or dangerous co-sleeping
First images shown of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon’s dark-haired baby girl
The tiny infant, named Victoria, was captured on camera wrapped in a blanket zipped inside Marten’s coat in CCTV footage played to the Old Bailey
On the basis that the cause of death can not be definitively proved, the prosecution are alleging that as a result of their actions (choosing to camp out from which the death of Victoria was therefore a consequence) ending up in a dangerous co-sleeping position was was led to Victoria’s death. I just don’t think she would have died if they had been in suitable accommodation or if Victoria had warm clothes and decent bedding. I have taken my babies camping and it was quite fraught with fear over balancing their getting too hot/too cold and not being smothered by bedding etc. We would co-sleep on an inflatable mattress so we could monitor their temperature easily but did so with plenty of room around us and proper bedding and, crucially, multiple layers for the children, and the same for me. So I am not of the view that specifically being in a tent with a baby is going to lead to its death. But I do think they were negligently under prepared in the circumstances they found themselves in. I was also a constant baby-wearer, so believe CM when she says Victoria was always strapped to them - this seems most sensible. But I would draw the line of lying down in that position to sleep - which is what she confessed to doing. MOO.
I could see the jury falling either way on this though. MOO
<modsnip> Being in a tent in the middle of winter with inadequate clothing and parents who were so exhausted due to their own bad choices would have made it a miracle if Victoria had survived.<modsnip>
You will find no research in Google Scholar on the price of a tent being a contributary factor in SIDS... it's irrelevant.
Peter Fleming: Instigator of “Back to Sleep”
#### Biography Peter Fleming’s research into sudden infant death has saved thousands of lives by simply putting babies to sleep on their backs. Now professor of infant health and developmental physiology at Bristol University, in the late 1980s he led a pioneering study that sharply reduced...www.bmj.com
Sudden Infant Death: Does cot death still exist?
With leading researchers saying smoking and other modifiable factors account for most sudden infant deaths, Jonathan Gornall asks whether it is time to put the diagnosis to bed
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www.researchgate.net
etc etc etc.
<modsnip>
Every year in the United States, approximately 3500 infants die of sleep-related infant deaths, including sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems 10th Revision [ICD-10] R95), ill-defined deaths (ICD-10 R99), and accidental suffocation and strangulation in bed (ICD-10 W75). After a substantial decline in sleep-related deaths in the 1990s, the overall death rate attributable to sleep-related infant deaths have remained stagnant since 2000, and disparities persist. The triple risk model proposes that SIDS occurs when an infant with intrinsic vulnerability (often manifested by impaired arousal, cardiorespiratory, and/or autonomic responses) undergoes an exogenous trigger event (eg, exposure to an unsafe sleeping environment) during a critical developmental period. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends a safe sleep environment to reduce the risk of all sleep-related deaths.
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publications.aap.org
Again, this is a direct quote from Prof FlemingActually I just read back in this article that the prosecution are alleging it was either hypothermia or dangerous co-sleeping
First images shown of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon’s dark-haired baby girl
The tiny infant, named Victoria, was captured on camera wrapped in a blanket zipped inside Marten’s coat in CCTV footage played to the Old Bailey
On the basis that the cause of death can not be definitively proved, the prosecution are alleging that as a result of their actions (choosing to camp out from which the death of Victoria was therefore a consequence) ending up in a dangerous co-sleeping position was was led to Victoria’s death. I just don’t think she would have died if they had been in suitable accommodation or if Victoria had warm clothes and decent bedding. I have taken my babies camping and it was quite fraught with fear over balancing their getting too hot/too cold and not being smothered by bedding etc. We would co-sleep on an inflatable mattress so we could monitor their temperature easily but did so with plenty of room around us and proper bedding and, crucially, multiple layers for the children, and the same for me. So I am not of the view that specifically being in a tent with a baby is going to lead to its death. But I do think they were negligently under prepared in the circumstances they found themselves in. I was also a constant baby-wearer, so believe CM when she says Victoria was always strapped to them - this seems most sensible. But I would draw the line of lying down in that position to sleep - which is what she confessed to doing. MOO.
I could see the jury falling either way on this though. MOO
www.bbc.com
I don't see the point of him being there if all he's going to do is repeat what CM said.
<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>Again, this is a direct quote from Prof Fleming
Prof Fleming said he had seen two cases in his career in which a breastfeeding mother had been sitting up, and fell asleep over the baby who died.
He didn't mention whether they were in tents but it happens..
or whether they were charged with negligence.
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: 'Unlikely' baby died of hypothermia, trial hears
An witness called by Constance Marten's lawyers said he did not think her newborn died from exposure.
<modsnip - sub judice>
I'm not a baby person though I am a nurse so have handled tiny babies..
I would personally be terrified of smothering them but in this scenario and in yours when you took your babies camping I'd be confident of being able to keep them warm through my own body heat.
<modsnip - sub judice>
I have zero understanding of a desire to have lots of children or even one.
When a court is sitting and a trial is ongoing I try to keep my opinion to myself unless it's an observation or research subsequent to evidence presented in said court.
I do respect Prof Fleming though.
There are questions we all have that will never be answered.
