UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Sherlockhames]

I don't see the point of him being there if all he's going to do is repeat what CM said.

I suppose given the jury have been told this was the case (that his findings were based on her testimony only - she was called as a defence witness after all) they are entitled to make their own assumptions as to the veracity of everything she told him and therefore weight his evidence accordingly.

 

[kittythehare]

I don't see the point of him being there if all he's going to do is repeat what CM said.

He's doing a bit more than that.
For one thing he is a qualified expert.

Ms Marten has previously told jurors Victoria died on 9 January, but prosecutors allege she died weeks later.

Prof Fleming said a measurement of Victoria's foot length suggested she was not born prematurely and was about two to three weeks old when she died.

He added he could not confirm Victoria was eight weeks old when she died.

Prof Fleming said: "All the pointers suggest to me that she was much younger. The best fit is that she was two or three weeks."

He also stated it is highly unlikely she died of hypothermia.

He is rebuffing the prosecution case and is qualified to do so.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: 'Unlikely' baby died of hypothermia, trial hears

An witness called by Constance Marten's lawyers said he did not think her newborn died from exposure.

www.bbc.com

 

[DianaWW]

He's doing a bit more than that.
For one thing he is a qualified expert.

Ms Marten has previously told jurors Victoria died on 9 January, but prosecutors allege she died weeks later.

Prof Fleming said a measurement of Victoria's foot length suggested she was not born prematurely and was about two to three weeks old when she died.

He added he could not confirm Victoria was eight weeks old when she died.

Prof Fleming said: "All the pointers suggest to me that she was much younger. The best fit is that she was two or three weeks."

He also stated it is highly unlikely she died of hypothermia.

He is rebuffing the prosecution case and is qualified to do so.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: 'Unlikely' baby died of hypothermia, trial hears

An witness called by Constance Marten's lawyers said he did not think her newborn died from exposure.

www.bbc.com

But his reasoning for asserting that it was unlikely she died of hypothermia was based on information CM had given him, some of which is proven to be untrue, the rest unverified. The pathologist was unable to rule it out.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Professor Fleming admitted under cross examination that his report was written based on information from CM, and the assumption that she was telling him the truth. The problem is, one of the things she told him is that she bought weather appropriate clothing for Victoria on a certain date, which turned out to be untrue. His assertion that Victoria was feeding well is also based on what he was told by CM.

We do not know that Victoria died of SIDS. Even if CM’s version of events is true, then baby Victoria died after she fell asleep on top of her, while she was zipped inside a coat. That is not SIDS, that is suffocation. I do not believe she would have died regardless of where they were. Would she have been zipped inside a coat if they were in a 5 star hotel? Unlikely IMO.

Bolded by me

I agree. We have CM's version of events that she has repeatedly stated. Also that version is supported by MG insofar as although he has chosen not to take the stand, he has basically stated 'whatever she says'.

It seems that LE are mistaken on the age of the baby and that's an error but it doesn't undermine their entire case and it doesn't erase CM's own words.

JMO MOO

 

[kittythehare]

But his reasoning for asserting that it was unlikely she died of hypothermia was based on information CM had given him, some of which is proven to be untrue, the rest unverified. The pathologist was unable to rule it out.

reports on multiple media state he said it was EXCEEDING UNLIKELY

Professor Peter Fleming, an expert on infant health, considered the circumstances of how the baby died after hearing Marten's account. Giving evidence on Tuesday, the defence witness told jurors: "I have seen no evidence of hypothermia as a cause of death but the description of how the baby was being cared for would make hypothermia exceedingly unlikely." He added that the length of Victoria's feet was "most compatible" with death occurring at the age of two to three weeks.



Cross-examining, Tom Little KC asked if his opinion would change if he learned that Marten had lied to him about Victoria's death. Professor Fleming said Marten's description had been "extraordinarily consistent", saying: "My assumption is she is telling the truth unless there is evidence she is not." Mr Little said: "Has it crossed your mind that she might be responsible for the death of her baby?

'Exceedingly unlikely' Constance Marten's baby died from cold

Constance Marten, 36, and her partner Mark Gordon, 49, were living off grid in a tent on the South Downs when their daughter Victoria died

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: 'Unlikely' baby died of hypothermia, trial hears

An witness called by Constance Marten's lawyers said he did not think her newborn died from exposure.

www.bbc.com

‘Exceedingly unlikely’ baby Victoria died from cold, fugitive aristocrat's trial told | BreakingNews.ie

Victoria’s badly decomposed body was found inside a Lidl bag on an allotment shed

www.breakingnews.ie

 

[Nikynoo]

He's doing a bit more than that.
For one thing he is a qualified expert.

Ms Marten has previously told jurors Victoria died on 9 January, but prosecutors allege she died weeks later.

Prof Fleming said a measurement of Victoria's foot length suggested she was not born prematurely and was about two to three weeks old when she died.

He added he could not confirm Victoria was eight weeks old when she died.

Prof Fleming said: "All the pointers suggest to me that she was much younger. The best fit is that she was two or three weeks."

He also stated it is highly unlikely she died of hypothermia.

He is rebuffing the prosecution case and is qualified to do so.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: 'Unlikely' baby died of hypothermia, trial hears

An witness called by Constance Marten's lawyers said he did not think her newborn died from exposure.

www.bbc.com

I seem to recall the the prosecutions expert said that Victoria was between 2-6 weeks old when she died. Seeing as she was full term and her mother is tall - is it possible that Victoria was quite a long baby (there was reference to length of a baby yesterday) based on her mothers height?

 

[DianaWW]

reports on multiple media state he said it was EXCEEDING UNLIKELY

Professor Peter Fleming, an expert on infant health, considered the circumstances of how the baby died after hearing Marten's account. Giving evidence on Tuesday, the defence witness told jurors: "I have seen no evidence of hypothermia as a cause of death but the description of how the baby was being cared for would make hypothermia exceedingly unlikely." He added that the length of Victoria's feet was "most compatible" with death occurring at the age of two to three weeks.



Cross-examining, Tom Little KC asked if his opinion would change if he learned that Marten had lied to him about Victoria's death. Professor Fleming said Marten's description had been "extraordinarily consistent", saying: "My assumption is she is telling the truth unless there is evidence she is not." Mr Little said: "Has it crossed your mind that she might be responsible for the death of her baby?

'Exceedingly unlikely' Constance Marten's baby died from cold

Constance Marten, 36, and her partner Mark Gordon, 49, were living off grid in a tent on the South Downs when their daughter Victoria died

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: 'Unlikely' baby died of hypothermia, trial hears

An witness called by Constance Marten's lawyers said he did not think her newborn died from exposure.

www.bbc.com

‘Exceedingly unlikely’ baby Victoria died from cold, fugitive aristocrat's trial told | BreakingNews.ie

Victoria’s badly decomposed body was found inside a Lidl bag on an allotment shed

www.breakingnews.ie

These are all reports relating to Fleming’s evidence. As I already stated, the reason he thinks hypothermia unlikely, is because of what CM has told him. The description of how she was cared for, which he seems to be basing his opinion on, is just what she has told him. She told him she bought weather appropriate clothing on a certain date. We know this is untrue. She told him Victoria was feeding well, and her hands and feet were warm. This is unverified. But I will leave it there because I’ve said this several times now.

 

[kittythehare]

I seem to recall the the prosecutions expert said that Victoria was between 2-6 weeks old when she died. Seeing as she was full term and her mother is tall - is it possible that Victoria was quite a long baby (there was reference to length of a baby yesterday) based on her mothers height?

Could be in laymans terms but I don't see Fleming going above and beyond for that.. he stated 2-3 wks at most and he's an anatomy expert..

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Considering how exceptionally cold it was, plus the damp, and lack of shelter or basic needs such as clean running water or a safe place to toilet, it is quite remarkable that Prof Fleming would stick his neck out and say that hypothermia is unlikely. People would be driven mad and be numb with that level of sustained cold.

However, since CM herself states she fell asleep and leaned over onto the baby then it looks like suffocation is the most likely cause - it seems to be leading to that IMO.

JMO MOO

 

[Skigh]

Considering how exceptionally cold it was, plus the damp, and lack of shelter or basic needs such as clean running water or a safe place to toilet, it is quite remarkable that Prof Fleming would stick his neck out and say that hypothermia is unlikely. People would be driven mad and be numb with that level of sustained cold.

However, since CM herself states she fell asleep and leaned over onto the baby then it looks like suffocation is the most likely cause - it seems to be leading to that IMO.

JMO MOO

Not to mention the lack of hygiene and very high risk of infection.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Do we think MGs "half a toe" is down to trench foot then? Would explain the rotting flesh smell from the hotel, the plastic bags & the stick.

And if so how could a baby be kept dry and warm if a grown man couldn't manage it.

I always wondered if his foot had got burned in the car fire, otherwise yep I guess saturated shoes and socks could easily create some form of disease. Also frost-bite. People downplay the concept of frostbite in the UK but it's a real thing for people who sleep outdoors in winter (for a variety of reasons including outdoor pursuits, homelessness, or drug / alcohol effects) and they can lose not only fingers and toes but need entire limbs amputated.

JMO MOO

 

[dotr]

A baby's cry can be absolutely rattling for some people, even those living in the best of circumstances, wondering how "Daddy Bear'' (insert vomit emoji) responded to the crying when he was tired, cold and hungry? imo.

 

[kittythehare]

A baby's cry can be absolutely rattling for some people, even those living in the best of circumstances, wondering how "Daddy Bear'' (insert vomit emoji) responded to the crying when he was tired, cold and hungry? imo.

No idea.

 

[Sherlockhames]

I always wondered if his foot had got burned in the car fire, otherwise yep I guess saturated shoes and socks could easily create some form of disease. Also frost-bite. People downplay the concept of frostbite in the UK but it's a real thing for people who sleep outdoors in winter (for a variety of reasons including outdoor pursuits, homelessness, or drug / alcohol effects) and they can lose not only fingers and toes but need entire limbs amputated.

JMO MOO

The reported hotel room smell was before the car fire. I always suspected it might have been down to CM having given birth recently and it being the remains of post birth lochia (women on here who have given birth should understand what I am on about). If one is not regularly cleaning/changing pads etc then it could have been the first opportunity in a while to have a proper clean up. Which could leave behind a noticeable smell while cleaning up or disposing of pads. MOO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

There has previously been references to MG's mother, but not his father, could it be that MG thinks of children only in terms of having a mother, fathers playing no role other than for conception? speculation, imo

It's certainly possible, although I did notice that on the kebab shop footage he was much more gentle with Victoria than her mother, whose manhandling of her into the buggy made me flinch!

I always wondered if his foot had got burned in the car fire, otherwise yep I guess saturated shoes and socks could easily create some form of disease. Also frost-bite. People downplay the concept of frostbite in the UK but it's a real thing for people who sleep outdoors in winter (for a variety of reasons including outdoor pursuits, homelessness, or drug / alcohol effects) and they can lose not only fingers and toes but need entire limbs amputated.

JMO MOO

Or possibly trenchfoot?

 

[CaptainNancy]

I find CM’s account of the death of her baby believable.

True: there is no evidence either way wrt to whether hypothermia was the cause of partial cause.

But did the life they were living cause the death? CM said in court she was exhausted, that her body ‘shut down’. Looking at their travels from when Victoria was 2 days old (if born on 24 Dec) , CM said she was driving up to 12 hours a day, taxis through the night, CCTV of them walking the streets at night, moving in at the crack of dawn.

They did these things deliberately to conceal the birth of the baby. Choices which resulted in extreme exhaustion. In CM’s account, exhaustion led to her falling asleep on top of her baby.

In a stable, non/fleeing life, would she have become so very exhausted? Do women often accidentally smother their babies due to exhaustion? In a domestic environment she would have been able to lean back in a chair or have her baby safely in a co/sleeping arrangement. The baby would not have needed to be zipped under a coat to keep warm.

It will be interesting to hear the judges summing up but personally I think the life they were living, and specifically the exhaustion, led to the child’s death,

 

[Baby baby Jane]

The way she describes falling asleep leaning forward seems really odd, reminds me of seeing overdose victims who are seated, collapse foreward which is unnatural. Imo

 

[crespo29]

Prosecutor Tom Little KC’s account of what the prosecution thought had happened as given in his prosecution opening statement in which he suggested that the baby had died due to the reckless, utterly selfish, callous cruel, arrogant and ultimately grossly negligent conduct of the two defendants, as a baby was at "extremely high risk of dying" when exposed to cold weather when camping on the South Downs in January doesn’t seem to be capable of being proved.

In his opening statement, Tom Little KC had also claimed that Baby Victoria was carried in a shopping bag while she was still alive. and that baby Victoria had died some weeks later than the date of death given by CM on 8/9 January. The prosecution had produced witnesses that claimed to have seen evidence of the baby being alive. This was always denied by CM.

Professor Fleming seems to have seriously challenged the Prosecution’s versions of events which was why Tom Little was exasperated by Fleming’s evidence and came off the worse in their exchange in court. I am afraid that The prosecution have not put forward any evidence to disprove the story put forward by CM. I think this will be reflected in the judge’s closing statement and advice to the jury.

 

[kittythehare]

Prosecutor Tom Little KC’s account of what the prosecution thought had happened as given in his prosecution opening statement in which he suggested that the baby had died due to the reckless, utterly selfish, callous cruel, arrogant and ultimately grossly negligent conduct of the two defendants, as a baby was at "extremely high risk of dying" when exposed to cold weather when camping on the South Downs in January doesn’t seem to be capable of being proved.

In his opening statement, Tom Little KC had also claimed that Baby Victoria was carried in a shopping bag while she was still alive. and that baby Victoria had died some weeks later than the date of death given by CM on 8/9 January. The prosecution had produced witnesses that claimed to have seen evidence of the baby being alive. This was always denied by CM.

Professor Fleming seems to have seriously challenged the Prosecution’s versions of events which was why Tom Little was exasperated by Fleming’s evidence and came off the worse in their exchange in court. I am afraid that The prosecution have not put forward any evidence to disprove the story put forward by CM. I think this will be reflected in the judge’s closing statement and advice to the jury.

That is what I'm seeing too.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Prosecutor Tom Little KC’s account of what the prosecution thought had happened as given in his prosecution opening statement in which he suggested that the baby had died due to the reckless, utterly selfish, callous cruel, arrogant and ultimately grossly negligent conduct of the two defendants, as a baby was at "extremely high risk of dying" when exposed to cold weather when camping on the South Downs in January doesn’t seem to be capable of being proved.

In his opening statement, Tom Little KC had also claimed that Baby Victoria was carried in a shopping bag while she was still alive. and that baby Victoria had died some weeks later than the date of death given by CM on 8/9 January. The prosecution had produced witnesses that claimed to have seen evidence of the baby being alive. This was always denied by CM.

Professor Fleming seems to have seriously challenged the Prosecution’s versions of events which was why Tom Little was exasperated by Fleming’s evidence and came off the worse in their exchange in court. I am afraid that The prosecution have not put forward any evidence to disprove the story put forward by CM. I think this will be reflected in the judge’s closing statement and advice to the jury.

Mainly it’s down to words.
There’s no evidence of hypothermia, no factual evidence of “cot death” unless you think CM conclusion is correct. She was asleep during the death, so how the heck would she know the cause.
The expert can confidently say “no evidence” of hypothermia. There is no evidence of any cause. I do hope that this is clarified.

The baby was so long dead & decomposed at autopsy, that there is no evidence of actual cause - which could have been a few things - cold, virus, malnutrition and cot death or something else or combo of anything.

CM and MG hid the body under dirt and carried it around to keep V and evidence of cause of death from being found.