UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Alyce]

The Independent - link for today

46 minutes ago

Good morning​

We are restarting live updates on this blog with Constance Marten and Mark Gordon due back at the Old Bailey for the recommencing of their manslaughter trial at 10.30am.

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[kittythehare]

I can't find much about them either, but he did mention something about the size of her foot when he was discussing her age, so I would assume this came from the report. However we also know that the autopsy wasn't able to determine a cause of death, and couldn't rule out either hypothermia or suffocation. His assertion that it was unlikely that hypothermia was a cause came from information given to him by CM, not the autopsy report. So I would be interested to hear more about the conversation referenced in the closing speech, we are likely to be missing some context. The reporting has been pretty woeful.

I have read the trial transcript of part of his cross exam, but it ends before it's finished and I can't see the conversation referenced (I skim read so may have missed). Link here to the cross-exam:

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-mark-gordon-no-evidence-of-hypothermia-01ht5j2zq0qs3mst19k3dwpv82

Found it, thanks, hadn't seen your reply when I posted.
So my question is whether CM would have known that a hypothermic baby would not have been feeding?
I would not have known and I'm a nurse but not a midwife.
It may be common knowledge..

To me, listening to both podcasts Prof Fleming is a credible witness.

 

[Alyce]

Central Criminal Court​	5​	T20237104​	constance marten mark alton gordon​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:38

Details:

Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:38 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 11:00 - 10:40

www.thelawpages.com

 

[Alyce]

13 minutes ago

The case is underway​

The trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon has resumed today at the Old Bailey.

3 minutes ago

What happened to baby Victoria was ‘no crime’, Marten’s lawyer says​

Launching his closing remarks to the jury, Francis Fitzgibbon KC, defending Marten, said baby Victoria’s death was no more than a “tragic accident”.
“What happened to Victoria was no crime. But rather a terrible, tragic accident,” he told the court.
He accused the prosecution of painting the mother as a “monster” during the trial, which he alleged had been prosecuted in an “aggressive, bullish way” as Marten endured five days of cross examination.
He added: “There were times when it was almost personal…as if they wanted to make you hate her or fill you with righteous anger so you would be more inclined to find her guilty.”

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

13 minutes ago

The case is underway​

The trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon has resumed today at the Old Bailey.

3 minutes ago

What happened to baby Victoria was ‘no crime’, Marten’s lawyer says​

Launching his closing remarks to the jury, Francis Fitzgibbon KC, defending Marten, said baby Victoria’s death was no more than a “tragic accident”.
“What happened to Victoria was no crime. But rather a terrible, tragic accident,” he told the court.
He accused the prosecution of painting the mother as a “monster” during the trial, which he alleged had been prosecuted in an “aggressive, bullish way” as Marten endured five days of cross examination.
He added: “There were times when it was almost personal…as if they wanted to make you hate her or fill you with righteous anger so you would be more inclined to find her guilty.”

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

“Tragic accident”?

Tragic stupidity!

 

[Alyce]

From the link above.....

Marten endured five days of cross examination.

If she had answered the questions instead of giving unrelated lectures to the court, her testimony could have been completed in a far shorter time.

 

[Alyce]

2 minutes ago

Marten found it ‘virtually impossible’ to accept family court’s decision to take her other children​

Mr Fitzgibbon said he was not asking for a “sympathy vote” but urged the jury to show the mother empathy.
“What I do ask for is your empathy, by which I mean your ability to see what happened from Constance Marten’s own point of view. Or, as she put it, walk a distance…in her shoes before you judge her,” he told the jury.
He said she was a mother managing “quasi grief” after her four other children were taken into care by a family court.
“As a mother she laments the loss of her four children. She finds it virtually impossible to accept that those decisions were right. Whether they were or not, she can’t accept it,” he added.

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[iamshadow21]

2 minutes ago

Marten found it ‘virtually impossible’ to accept family court’s decision to take her other children​

Mr Fitzgibbon said he was not asking for a “sympathy vote” but urged the jury to show the mother empathy.
“What I do ask for is your empathy, by which I mean your ability to see what happened from Constance Marten’s own point of view. Or, as she put it, walk a distance…in her shoes before you judge her,” he told the jury.
He said she was a mother managing “quasi grief” after her four other children were taken into care by a family court.
“As a mother she laments the loss of her four children. She finds it virtually impossible to accept that those decisions were right. Whether they were or not, she can’t accept it,” he added.

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

"The prosecution tried to manipulate your emotions! How dare they! Hold on while I do the same."

 

[Alyce]

6 seconds ago

Parents ‘a touch paranoid’ amid ‘sensational’ news coverage, court told​

Mr Fitzgibbon said the parents kept themselves out of sight because they did not want to lose another child.
“Constance and her husband didn’t want another child to be taken from them so they kept themselves – and continued to keep themselves – out of sight and then later off the grid entirely,” he told the jury.
He admitted they may have felt somewhat “paranoid” as they travelled the length and breadth of the country amid high profile appeals to find them.
“As you know they were pursued for some of that time by the authorities – no doubt for good reason – and the media in the most public way imaginable. Could that not make anyone a touch paranoid, if that’s what they were?,” he said, adding: “The story was a sensation and it was reported sensationally.”

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[rockthecasbah]

2 minutes ago

Marten found it ‘virtually impossible’ to accept family court’s decision to take her other children​

Mr Fitzgibbon said he was not asking for a “sympathy vote” but urged the jury to show the mother empathy.
“What I do ask for is your empathy, by which I mean your ability to see what happened from Constance Marten’s own point of view. Or, as she put it, walk a distance…in her shoes before you judge her,” he told the jury.
He said she was a mother managing “quasi grief” after her four other children were taken into care by a family court.
“As a mother she laments the loss of her four children. She finds it virtually impossible to accept that those decisions were right. Whether they were or not, she can’t accept it,” he added.

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

She finds it virtually impossible that she is ever in the wrong.

 

[Alyce]

5 minutes ago

Defence insists alleged sightings after 12 January were ‘confirmation bias’​

Mr Fitzgibbon insisted baby Victoria died on 9 January – the day after the couple pitched a tent on the South Downs, before the couple purchased petrol on 12 January as they considered cremating the infant.
He said alleged witness sightings of the baby after 12 January were a “classic case” of confirmation bias by members of the public who had read media reports about the family.
In aftermath of Victoria’s death the parents were “deranged with grief and anxiety”, he said, adding: “They were scared of being found and falsely accused of killing their baby.”

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[kittythehare]

5 minutes ago

Defence insists alleged sightings after 12 January were ‘confirmation bias’​

Mr Fitzgibbon insisted baby Victoria died on 9 January – the day after the couple pitched a tent on the South Downs, before the couple purchased petrol on 12 January as they considered cremating the infant.
He said alleged witness sightings of the baby after 12 January were a “classic case” of confirmation bias by members of the public who had read media reports about the family.
In aftermath of Victoria’s death the parents were “deranged with grief and anxiety”, he said, adding: “They were scared of being found and falsely accused of killing their baby.”

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

I think this is accurate.

 

[Alyce]

40 seconds ago

Claims the couple carried baby Victoria in Lidl carrier bag while still alive a ‘smear’, court told​

Mr Fitzgibbon told the jury that in CCTV footage of the couple on the run the baby is being “held close” by one or other of the parents.
“We say it is a smear and nothing more to suggest that the baby was in the shopping bag at any stage,” he added.

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

3 minutes ago

Trial breaks for lunch​

The trial is taking a break and will return at around 2pm.

 

[Maryanna]

I seem to recall that it was closer to 200 questions.

If that's true, that's one heck of an unusual jury.
I'm not sure how many days of evidence there have been, but if we say there have been witnesses in the box 4 hours per day for 5 weeks and the court sat 5 days each week, that would be one question from a juror every 30 minutes. If there's only been half that amount of evidence, it would be one question every 15 minutes.

 

[CaptainNancy]

"Mr Fitzgibbon insisted baby Victoria died on 9 January – the day after the couple pitched a tent on the South Downs, before the couple purchased petrol on 12 January as they considered cremating the infant"

This has reminded me - I am pretty sure that in her testimony about what they did after the death of Victoria CM said that she had done nothing but stay in the tent in her grief, for 4 or 5 days. And yet here she is on CCTV at a petrol station buying petrol

 

[Maryanna]

I wish I could be a defence barrister in court today to deconstruct the prosecutions closing statement which seems to me to be bluster, and accusations that have not been proved in court.

Although I don’t believe the case should have ever gone to the Old Bailey courts which has ‘gummed’ up the system <modsnip: sub judice>

I don't think they should have been prosecuted at all, or hunted, or arrested, or that the trial should have been allowed to proceed.

But here we are. If there really have been over 100 or nearly 200 questions from jurors, this is an extremely unusual jury, although not necessarily regarding more than one of its members.

This case will IMO have repercussions whether the jury returns verdicts of all NG, all G, or if the result is a mixture of two or more out of NG, G, and hung.

 

[Nikynoo]

If that's true, that's one heck of an unusual jury.
I'm not sure how many days of evidence there have been, but if we say there have been witnesses in the box 4 hours per day for 5 weeks and the court sat 5 days each week, that would be one question from a juror every 30 minutes. If there's only been half that amount of evidence, it would be one question every 15 minutes.

The high number makes me think that neither the prosecution nor the defence has been particuarly clear in the presentation of their respective cases.

 

[Nikynoo]

"Mr Fitzgibbon insisted baby Victoria died on 9 January – the day after the couple pitched a tent on the South Downs, before the couple purchased petrol on 12 January as they considered cremating the infant"

This has reminded me - I am pretty sure that in her testimony about what they did after the death of Victoria CM said that she had done nothing but stay in the tent in her grief, for 4 or 5 days. And yet here she is on CCTV at a petrol station buying petrol

No, she did testify about the petrol, quite early on I believe.

 

[Maryanna]

The high number makes me think that neither the prosecution nor the defence has been particuarly clear in the presentation of their respective cases.

If I had to guess I would say that one juror may have been very pro-prosecution - either because they are very pro-SS or for some other reason - and took it into their head that they wanted to bring points to the attention of fellow jurors that the poor unfortunates hadn't managed to read about in the press (there was a question that went something like "Was there something you remembered about MG that made you think...?"), and that after a time this set some of the other jurors off and they started asking questions too.

This is nothing but speculation. It may bear absolutely no resemblance to what happened. (But I have served on a jury where there were big disagreements FWIW.)

If this speculation is anywhere near accurate, it would suggest there might not be any 11-0 verdicts although there may be some that are 10-1.