UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[OrangeCash]

I don't think they should have been prosecuted at all, or hunted, or arrested, or that the trial should have been allowed to proceed.

They weren't hunted, they were wanted by Police

 

[BreadnLumpit]

And if CM got pregnant by someone else ?

The same answer. The only thing that can be certain is that SS would take an interest. To what degree is entirely dependent on all the things that we don't know.

 

[jackal67]

The same answer. The only thing that can be certain is that SS would take an interest. To what degree is entirely dependent on all the things that we don't know.

Do you think that the verdict in this trial would also have a bearing particularly if it is a guilty verdict/?

 

[jackal67]

CM was asleep when the baby died.
She cannot know the circumstances at time of death.
She has made assumptions, she can have NO certainty about the cause because she was asleep.

Prof Fleming is basing his opinion, on CMs assumptions about what happened while she was asleep.

He is a witness that CM is paying to support her version of events <modsnip: Removed opinion stated as fact>.

He is also going on what CM told him about Babys clothing and feeding etc. He has no way of knowing if this was true or not!

 

[Telltale]

If I had to guess I would say that one juror may have been very pro-prosecution - either because they are very pro-SS or for some other reason - and took it into their head that they wanted to bring points to the attention of fellow jurors that the poor unfortunates hadn't managed to read about in the press (there was a question that went something like "Was there something you remembered about MG that made you think...?"), and that after a time this set some of the other jurors off and they started asking questions too.

This is nothing but speculation. It may bear absolutely no resemblance to what happened. (But I have served on a jury where there were big disagreements FWIW.)

If this speculation is anywhere near accurate, it would suggest there might not be any 11-0 verdicts although there may be some that are 10-1.

Idk man maybe the jurors just take issue with the fact medical care is free in this country but they'd rather let their baby die in a freezing tent and then pack her body into a bag full of rubbish instead of calling a bloody ambulance.

Everyone is pro SS when the alternative is a dead newborn. Well, everyone sane.

 

[jackal67]

CM was asleep when the baby died.
She cannot know the circumstances at time of death.
She has made assumptions, she can have NO certainty about the cause because she was asleep.

Prof Fleming is basing his opinion, on CMs assumptions about what happened while she was asleep.

He is a witness that CM is paying to support her version of events <modsnip: Removed opinion stated as fact>

That is CMs version of events though. We do not know for a fact that this is how baby V died JMO

 

[bobbymkii]

Podcast reference - 22.00 minutes.

Juries at the Old Bailey are not always given a room during the trial.
All Jurors are allowed to discuss the ongoing trial when all 12 of them ( in this case 11 ) are present.

Are you sure about that?

Surely if that's the case they'd need a sworn bailiff at all times they are in that room to ensure all active jurors (and no-one else at all) are in the room?

Jury service

What to do if you're asked to do jury service - taking time off work, delaying jury service, claiming expenses. Includes information from the withdrawn 5222, 5222A and Juror Charter guidance.

www.gov.uk

 

[DianaWW]

This is a really useful Podcast, just out today ( as I said elsewhere, like buses, none at all or several at once ),

They go into great detail about the 5 charges, the order in which the Jury must approach them, what to discard if need be ( depending on whether they find guilty or NG on certain charges ) and the level that needs to be reached for Gross Negligence Manslaughter.

Also, of interest. The Jury have had their own room at the Old Bailey since the beginning of the trial. So they have been able to discuss the case amongst themselves as the trial progressed. Which hopefully is going to save some time when it comes to them going out to deliberate and reach a verdict.

Fresh From The Old Bailey: Special Season: The Constance Marten Trial - Episode 5 on Apple Podcasts

Show Fresh From The Old Bailey, Ep Special Season: The Constance Marten Trial - Episode 5 - 16 Apr 2024

podcasts.apple.com

Thank you, the judges directions are explained really clearly here. They also confirmed that the jurors asked 150 questions!

 

[jackal67]

I don't think they should have been prosecuted at all, or hunted, or arrested, or that the trial should have been allowed to proceed.

But here we are. If there really have been over 100 or nearly 200 questions from jurors, this is an extremely unusual jury, although not necessarily regarding more than one of its members.

This case will IMO have repercussions whether the jury returns verdicts of all NG, all G, or if the result is a mixture of two or more out of NG, G, and hung.

Can I ask why you think this ? Even before the car fire and the birth of baby V when no one knew about the pregnancy they were living a very chaotic life style.
living in their car etc ,no proper home hardly ideal life to bring a baby into? JMO

 

[dotr]

Bristol study finds babies born out of hospital risk hypothermia

A new study finds only 2.7% of babies born this way have their temperatures checked after birth.

www.bbc.com

1 February 2024 By Matthew Hill,West of England Health Correspondant
''Babies born out of hospital have been put at increased risk of hypothermia, new research shows''

''Guidelines recommend every baby should have a temperature check, as hypothermia is a serious risk for newborns in the minutes immediately following birth.''

''Dr Sarah Black, head of research, audit and improvement at SWAFT, said new training for all frontline staff will also now teach the importance of recording temperatures and understanding of the risk of hypothermia in new-born babies.''

 

[bobbymkii]

Podcast reference - 22.00 minutes.

Juries at the Old Bailey are not always given a room during the trial.
All Jurors are allowed to discuss the ongoing trial when all 12 of them ( in this case 11 ) are present.

I've just heard the part of the podcast where they mentioned it. That's so strange, I've never heard of that happening before!

I really don't know how I feel about that.

 

[BreadnLumpit]

Do you think that the verdict in this trial would also have a bearing particularly if it is a guilty verdict/?

Of course it would have a bearing - and quite rightly so IMO - as would the fact that their previous 4 children were removed from their care permanently.

Prison is supposed to be about rehabilitation though. If, having served a sentence, either party could show that they had put in the work required to understand why they made such poor choices, and demonstrated a sustained behavioural change, then moving on with a new partner, might not be an insurmountable obstacle.

Sadly though, I don't believe that either CM or MG would put in that kind of work. If they were willing and able to do so, then their children would, in all likelihood, still be with them.

MOO ... based on experience with SS and just how bad things have to be before children are removed from parents.

 

[Nikynoo]

I hope that never happens !! Doubt they would be allowed or else why not leave the country before the birth of baby V
I believe MG has terms and conditions in regards to his previous offences anyway

They didn’t leave because they were hoping to somehow get their 4 children returned to them. As far as I know (and if CM testimony is true) there are no travel restrictions for MG.

 

[jackal67]

Of course it would have a bearing - and quite rightly so IMO - as would the fact that their previous 4 children were removed from their care permanently.

Prison is supposed to be about rehabilitation though. If, having served a sentence, either party could show that they had put in the work required to understand why they made such poor choices, and demonstrated a sustained behavioural change, then moving on with a new partner, might not be an insurmountable obstacle.

Sadly though, I don't believe that either CM or MG would put in that kind of work. If they were willing and able to do so, then their children would, in all likelihood, still be with them.

MOO ... based on experience with SS and just how bad things have to be before children are removed from parents.

I agree 100%

 

[Nikynoo]

They weren't hunted, they were wanted by Police

That’s not strictly true. They were not wanted because they had committed an offence, I believe it was concern for the welfare of the child.

 

[jackal67]

They didn’t leave because they were hoping to somehow get their 4 children returned to them. As far as I know (and if CM testimony is true) there are no travel restrictions for MG.

I thought she said that they couldnt leave the country because of a court order brought by her family? She said that that had been the plan but they couldnt travel? Also the part about finding someone to take baby V abroad somewhere?

 

[Telltale]

I thought she said that they couldnt leave the country because of a court order brought by her family? She said that that had been the plan but they couldnt travel? Also the part about finding someone to take baby V abroad somewhere?

I think that might have been when they had the previous kids in her care. I haven't seen anything that suggests that her family are as aware of this pregnancy.

Anyway, those sort of orders are usually about not taking children out of the country. As far as I know there's not much even social services could do about her leaving while pregnant, even if they were aware of it beforehand.

 

[kittythehare]

I've just heard the part of the podcast where they mentioned it. That's so strange, I've never heard of that happening before!

I really don't know how I feel about that.

I don't know how I feel about any of it.
Totally surreal..

 

[jackal67]

I think that might have been when they had the previous kids in her care. I haven't seen anything that suggests that her family are as aware of this pregnancy.

Anyway, those sort of orders are usually about not taking children out of the country. As far as I know there's not much even social services could do about her leaving while pregnant, even if they were aware of it beforehand.

Oh ok I swore I had read that though, when she was cross examined and asked what their plans had been and also travelling to ports? Will have to try and check back

 

[BreadnLumpit]

They didn’t leave because they were hoping to somehow get their 4 children returned to them. As far as I know (and if CM testimony is true) there are no travel restrictions for MG.

It's quite a complicated topic I believe:

Technically being on the SOR doesn't, in and of itself, restrict travelling - but plenty of countries that require visitors to have a visa in order to gain entry will refuse to issue one to a sex offender.

Even those countries who are prepared to issue a short term visitor visa to a RSE are usually resistant to the idea of granting permanent residency.