VERDICT WATCH UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #8

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CocktailQueen said:
Can you or someone else summarise please? I’m not good at listening to podcasts. I can’t take them in.
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It is a stretched-out summary of the court system having to submit to holidays booked by any jury members outside of the allotted time. And why the Judge would not dismiss the two jurors with booked holidays and leave the jury as just nine.
 
Let's hope that a two week break, with plenty of time to mull things over in their heads, has them focused on reaching verdicts before the next round of holidays.

I have visions of us all still waiting here while simultaneously waiting for our Christmas turkeys to cook :eek:
 
I was too late to edit my earlier post, so here's the official listing for Monday




The Crown Court at Central Criminal Court


Daily Courtroom List for Monday 20 May 2024​
FINAL 1​
Court 5 - sitting at 09:00 am

THE RECORDER OF LONDON​


Trial (Part Heard)

T20237104GORDON Mark A01MP1072723SUSWMCPS
MARTEN Constance01MP1072723

DTA, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981


www.courtserve.net
 
Anastasia101 said:
I agree.
After 7 days the jury surely have already decided on several of the charges and provided these to the judge. Or else the jurors could return on the 20th, having had a rethink or change of heart on charges already agreed upon within the jury room. Then have to essentially start deliberations all over. JMO

I think it was a juror(s) preplanned holidays which prompted the request for initial longer days and this was rejected.
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If they've reached a verdict on any charge and want the judge to know before they've finished with the others, they shouldn't communicate privately what the verdict actually is.

But this is a highly unusual jury, so who knows? Or we can say that at least one person sitting on it is a highly unusual juror. Whatever the verdicts are, and regardless of whether or not they reach a full set, this jury will become part of Old Bailey history, and English legal history, because of all the questions.

I don't know whether a majority direction has been issued, but assuming it has been and looking at this from a juror's point of view, possible reasons for telling the judge you've decided on one charge but not on the others would include a) wanting to be declared hung (on the others) so that you can get home ("we absolutely cannot agree"), and b) wanting to pressure fellow jurors. This is because the job is still to continue deliberating until you have decided on all charges.

PS I would have thought that until the foreman delivers the verdict in answer to the clerk's question it IS possible for a juror to change their vote. Not that I've ever seen this happen, or that there's any reason to think it might happen in this case.
 
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Has the judge issued a majority direction, or is the target still unanimity?

The question as to what personality or personalities, influencing and influenced by what interpersonal dynamic, caused questions to fly in from the jury at the rate of about one every 20 minutes, up to a figure of close to 200, is utterly fascinating to me, but unfortunately we will never know how this came to happen, given the secrecy law that governs juries. [*]

PS Is it correct to say the jury was sent out late on Tue 30 April, deliberated all day on Wed 1 to Fri 3 May, then on Tue 7 and Wed 8, then today on Mon 20 May, so they have been deliberating for six and a bit days so far?

* I hope it's OK to note that sometimes pushing too hard for something achieves the opposite effect.
 
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Alyce said:
No News - just an update of today's timings


​
5​
T20237104​
constance marten
mark alton gordon​
Details:Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 09:16
Trial (Part Heard) - Case released until 00:00 - 09:35
Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:32
Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 14:28
Trial (Part Heard) - Case released until 00:00 - 14:42




www.thelawpages.com
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I might be misinterpreting this, but I think there's something quite interesting with those timings. As far as I can see it, the court started the day at 9:16 and the jury were sent out at 9:35. The jury were then back in court at 10:32 and again at 14:28 before the court rose for the day at 14:42. So what happened at 10:32? A verdict or seeking instruction from the judge? And what took 14 minutes at the end of the day? Seems like it's something more involved than "have you reached any verdicts on which you all agree? No m'lud. OK, 9 o'clock tomorrow morning then".
 
Yellowbelly said:
I might be misinterpreting this, but I think there's something quite interesting with those timings. As far as I can see it, the court started the day at 9:16 and the jury were sent out at 9:35. The jury were then back in court at 10:32 and again at 14:28 before the court rose for the day at 14:42. So what happened at 10:32? A verdict or seeking instruction from the judge? And what took 14 minutes at the end of the day? Seems like it's something more involved than "have you reached any verdicts on which you all agree? No m'lud. OK, 9 o'clock tomorrow morning then".
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I agree with you re the two recalls to Court. They were either wanting to have something read to them by the Judge, or returning a verdict for one or more of the charges.

Am hopeful it’s verdicts being given and if yes, then that would explain why the Judge hasn't offered them a majority.
 
Maryanna said:
If they've reached a verdict on any charge and want the judge to know before they've finished with the others, they shouldn't communicate privately what the verdict actually is.

But this is a highly unusual jury, so who knows? Or we can say that at least one person sitting on it is a highly unusual juror. Whatever the verdicts are, and regardless of whether or not they reach a full set, this jury will become part of Old Bailey history, and English legal history, because of all the questions.

I don't know whether a majority direction has been issued, but assuming it has been and looking at this from a juror's point of view, possible reasons for telling the judge you've decided on one charge but not on the others would include a) wanting to be declared hung (on the others) so that you can get home ("we absolutely cannot agree"), and b) wanting to pressure fellow jurors. This is because the job is still to continue deliberating until you have decided on all charges.

PS I would have thought that until the foreman delivers the verdict in answer to the clerk's question it IS possible for a juror to change their vote. Not that I've ever seen this happen, or that there's any reason to think it might happen in this case.
Click to expand...

But in the LL case - verdicts were being delivered and read in court as they were reached. And because there was a total reporting blackout, the fact that verdicts were even been delivered and read caught everyone following the case by surprise. Is this a highly unusual anomaly or is it common practice when there are multiple charges? In summing up the judge did allow the jury to apply logic used for one verdict to find guilt or innocence on another charge. Therefore in delivering a verdict on one, could potentially indicate what the verdict may be on other charges.

For this case, the extraordinary number of questions, request for longer days, length of deliberations to date indicate that this jury is being highly methodical and pragmatic, so i trust that the jury system is working the way it is intended to - based on the facts and evidence presented.

I always shudder uncomfortably at American jurors who, when a case has concluded, end up on daytime TV or are quick to sign book deals. But I’ve got to admit that I’m intrigued by the psychology of this particular jury.

Or who knows, they could be simply enjoying the tea, fancy sandwiches and idle chitchat!
 
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