UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #2

[MelmothTheLost]

But all there is at Barton mills that I know of which could possibly relate to this is a parking yard for local authority vehicles, including gritting lorries roadworks etc
The waste site there is a household waste recycling centre, with a height restriction barrier that they only open up for changing over skips, it's not a place where lorries would empty out or waste would be sorted

Is it possible that the bin lorry, if still relevant to this case, was actually going there to collect rubbish rather than dump it? McDonalds, LittleChef, Costa Coffee and a Travelodge are all sited on the main roundabout on the A11. There's a Pancake and Waffle Shack about 200 yards south of there on the A11. Other than the Travelodge, all of those businesses probably prefer their bin collections to be done in the early hours when it would be less disruptive. There are also a lot of restaurants in Mildenhall, which is just a mile or so away.

 

[Amonet]

Is Barton mills near the waste transfer site? If so, then my hypothesis would be that there phone was in the bin and ended up there.

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This means the phone has likely made its own journey to Barton Mills, dropped by or stolen from Corrie? As far as I know the bin lorry was headed toward the Barton Mills Fiveways roundabout but I haven't located the bin lorry's location on a map....maybe that's something one of our map people could show us?

So if Corrie's lost the phone somehow and it's headed alone to Barton Mills, either on the bin lorry or in the car of someone who picked it up from the street, then Corrie is still likely headed toward base at Honington. And he's likely going to walk, taxi, thumb a lift, or see someone he knows from the base or married quarters who's heading the same way.

If Corrie was thinking of going to Tesco or Tesco filling station to buy a bottle of water, I presume we can assume he didn't make it? Security footage from both locations should have been checked by now? Or he didn't intend to go there, which means:

he wasn't thirsty and was sure he wouldn't get thirsty on a long trek home
or he had somewhere else in mind to get a drink
he was so confident of getting a lift back that he didn't need a drink (for instance heading for a taxi rank)
Or he was 'abducted' or otherwise came to harm between the bin area and the Tesco's roundabout

If Corrie didn't stop off for water, then I can't see him making the trek back to base and being hijacked by terrorists who were waiting on that route for servicemen walking back to base. It's still possible that could have happened, but the further Corrie walks, the more likely he's going to be sighted by CCTV or by a person in a vehicle who's just driving by.

Thoughts?

 

[hermes&&]

Is it possible that the bin lorry, if still relevant to this case, was actually going there to collect rubbish rather than dump it? McDonalds, LittleChef, Costa Coffee and a Travelodge are all sited on the main roundabout on the A11. There's a Pancake and Waffle Shack about 200 yards south of there on the A11. Other than the Travelodge, all of those businesses probably prefer their bin collections to be done in the early hours when it would be less disruptive. There are also a lot of restaurants in Mildenhall, which is just a mile or so away.

Wasn't it last pick up of the route? I was under that impression. Where was the bin lorry headed do we know where it dropped its load?



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[MelmothTheLost]

So I've got Corrie coming up Short Brackland and I want to get him to a place where he could get picked up and taken to Barton Mills. I'm looking at Cannon Street, and more at Northgate Street. Either of those would have Corrie and our hypothetical vehicle, if one comes into play, heading up to the roundabout that goes to Compiegne Way, which would take Corrie to Tesco's, Tesco Filling Station, or back to Honington. But, if a car picks him up at this point, instead of going around Compiegne Way and the Tesco's roundabout, it's going to have to go up the A1101 to Mildenhall Road?

But why? This comes back to something I wrote many pages ago.

The picnic area at Barton Mills is a pick up area for men looking for a casual partner. If Corrie was picked up in or very close to BSE then he already has a casual partner. They don't need to drive as far as Barton Mills (unless it's also a gay dogging area and they wanted to be watched) because there are plenty of quiet rural roads, edges of forest/plantation, field entrances etc where they could pull off in a car for half an hour. Look at the forested areas around North Stowe, for instance. Loads of quiet places to park up - and loads of easy places to offload a body, whether buried, concealed or just dumped and far enough of Corrie's possible walking route home not to have been searched much if at all.

There are also similar, though smaller patches of woodland between BSE and Honington, but presumably these have all been searched long before now.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Wasn't it last pick up of the route? I was under that impression. Where was the bin lorry headed do we know where it dropped its load?

I don't know. Where did you read it was the last pickup? That would obviously rule out my earlier suggestion.

 

[Amonet]

But why? This comes back to something I wrote many pages ago.

The picnic area at Barton Mills is a pick up area for men looking for a casual partner. If Corrie was picked up in or very close to BSE then he already has a casual partner. They don't need to drive as far as Barton Mills (unless it's also a gay dogging area and they wanted to be watched) because there are plenty of quiet rural roads, edges of forest/plantation, field entrances etc where they could pull off in a car for half an hour. Look at the forested areas around North Stowe, for instance. Loads of quiet places to park up - and loads of easy places to offload a body, whether buried, concealed or just dumped and far enough of Corrie's possible walking route home not to have been searched much if at all.

There are also similar, though smaller patches of woodland between BSE and Honington, but presumably these have all been searched long before now.

That's good stuff. This could be a reason to eliminate this possibility, or we need to adapt it somehow?

So, if Corrie was a willing partner in something like this, the perp would probably live in BSE. He wants to drive down that road to find somewhere private, and bearing in mind the perp already has an idea this could come to a bad end, so he needs privacy. So Corrie would be half looking out the car window, "why not stop off here, let's get on with it?" And the perp isn't satisfied with doing that and drives on. Why? I don't know. I had the perp living in about an 8 mile radius of the Fiveways roundabout, and that was why he had to go that way. Going totally crazy with this scenario the perp might have a personal reason for wanting to go close to those gay dogging spots, he might have been attacked there before and he's taking Corrie there for some kind of vengeance attack. But then Corrie would still be asking "why do we have to go this far?" It doesn't make sense.

But that puts Corrie back in BSE/Compiegne Way area, and possibly walking back to base. And that's where the searches have been concentrated, and they haven't found anything?

If it was a terrorist abduction, I would have thought, if it's a guy in civvies, that the abduction would occur much closer to base and not in the town centre. I am starting to get more open to this possibility now.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

That's good stuff. This could be a reason to eliminate this possibility, or we need to adapt it somehow?

So, if Corrie was a willing partner in something like this, the perp would probably live in BSE. He wants to drive down that road to find somewhere private, and bearing in mind the perp already has an idea this could come to a bad end, so he needs privacy. So Corrie would be half looking out the car window, "why not stop off here, let's get on with it?" And the perp isn't satisfied with doing that and drives on. Why? I don't know. I had the perp living in about an 8 mile radius of the Fiveways roundabout, and that was why he had to go that way. Going totally crazy with this scenario the perp might have a personal reason for wanting to go close to those gay dogging spots, he might have been attacked there before and he's taking Corrie there for some kind of vengeance attack. But then Corrie would still be asking "why do we have to go this far?" It doesn't make sense.

But that puts Corrie back in BSE/Compiegne Way area, and possibly walking back to base. And that's where the searches have been concentrated, and they haven't found anything?

A thought though: if the hypothetical perp lives in BSE, we should consider the possibility that Corrie went home with him. This would argue either an encounter that was not expected to go bad but did, or that the perp is comfortable killing in his own home and feels he can dispose of a body without arousing suspicion. Either way it suggests the perp either lived alone or whoever else he lived with was away at the time.

But let's follow the idea that they ended up in a dark, isolated place. It was either a spur of the moment choice of venue, or one of the two had done this before and knew "a quiet spot". This is why I think the area around North Stow looks interesting. It's far enough off Corrie's likely routes home to not have been searched thoroughly, but is close enough to the A134 for the perp to be able to say beforehand that he will drop him back on the A134 close to base afterwards, and there are plenty of sidetracks accessible by vehicle but very lonely and isolated. A body could be lost there very easily and possibly not discovered for several years until a forestry worker or some leisure user just happens to be in that very area.

 

[Amonet]

A thought though: if the hypothetical perp lives in BSE, we should consider the possibility that Corrie went home with him. This would argue either an encounter that was not expected to go bad but did, or that the perp is comfortable killing in his own home and feels he can dispose of a body without arousing suspicion. Either way it suggests the perp either lived alone or whoever else he lived with was away at the time.

But let's follow the idea that they ended up in a dark, isolated place. It was either a spur of the moment choice of venue, or one of the two had done this before and knew "a quiet spot". This is why I think the area around North Stow looks interesting. It's far enough off Corrie's likely routes home to not have been searched thoroughly, but is close enough to the A134 for the perp to be able to say beforehand that he will drop him back on the A134 close to base afterwards, and there are plenty of sidetracks accessible by vehicle but very lonely and isolated. A body could be lost there very easily and possibly not discovered for several years until a forestry worker or some leisure user just happens to be in that very area.

I would like to see Thetford Forest searched, but I guess that's too big an area to be searched without evidence leading there :-(

 

[guruagain]

3. There's CCTV but it's too sensitive to release to the general public [emoji52]


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4. He just wasn't caught on CCTV as cameras were facing elsewhere.

 

[hermes&&]

I don't know. Where did you read it was the last pickup? That would obviously rule out my earlier suggestion.

I can't remember, it may have been on the previous thread. I'll try and hunt it down this evening.

Can any locals confirm the site at Barton mills is household only and not used as a transfer station. If that is the case where was the bin lorrys final destination?

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[Liz40]

I continue to find so many things confusing. The family previously said that Corrie wasn't ejected from the club and left voluntarily; now they are saying that he was asked to leave. I think this could make quite a difference regarding his intentions for later on that night.

<modsnip>

 

[JamesKing]

The thing with a D Notice is, there is officially no way of knowing that one has been placed on a story.
The second thing about a D Notice is, most people don't know what a D Notice is.

I previously have done alot of "fact finding" on the subject of the issuing of this "notice" whilst I was involved in some research into a story back in 2012. And believe you me, there are a lot of people that have researched this topic dating back further. It is a fascinating subject.

At best, you could say that "D Notices" are issued before a story hits the mainstream media. So a lot of "stories" don't even hit the newspapers. Sometimes then, you will pick up on a story (or at best a rumour)....and after doing some research into that, you wonder why it never made it onto the front pages of the newspapers.

Sometimes it is the press themselves that approach the committee. And in some cases the committee doesn't see the need for a D Notice, so one is not issued. Such as the case when the BBC approached the committee when it was due to air a programme called "My Country, Right or Wrong" which was to discuss the litigation following the "Spycatcher" autobiography, which was banned in England and Wales. It was the Attorney General that then stepped in and obtained an injunction to stop it's transmission.

You may even have contact with a journalist who may "indicate" the possibility that a story may have been suppressed higher up... because even they "dislike" how the issue has been treated. But sometimes, because the story covers several different jurisdictions, the fact that the British placed a D Notice on the story, fails to fully protect it from being disclosed.

Don't get me wrong. The D Notice system is there not to suppress criticism or to cover up potentially embarrassing stories or even to keep the "cloak and dagger" world of the security agencies a secret. It is solely there to protect national security. But could there be possible "infringements" and "misuse" of such a system ? That is the question.
In a review of the D Notice system (the Third Report from the Defence Committee) the system came in for criticism. It was found that the wording was too wide-spread to make it meaningless and it had the appearance of Press censorship. The system was reviewed again in 1992 and this reduced the number of notices to 6. And that is the system in place today.

The other type of story is where the "discretion" is applied (or a D Notice is issued), may be one that has reached the mainstream media, but then disappears. That may indicate a D Notice has likely been applied.

It is speculation of course, but a simple google of Corrie McKeague's name shows no mainstream media coverage after about the 25th of October. There are a couple of newspaper articles that have been written, but they are from small local papers....and they're not really reporting. One is reporting on the new website, the other that the police are looking through hours of CCTV footage.

So has there been a D Notice issued ? Best guess... Yes.

I don't think the police and security agencies have anything much to go on. And maybe because they are 5 weeks down the line with no trace of Corrie at all after extensive searches (likely not Absent, likely not Road Traffic Accident, likely not Slipped In A Ditch) they have to cover all other options. If that includes "possible abduction", then that's what it includes.

I imagine that they also do not want to encourage "wide spread panic".That in itself is a "National Security" issue. If they "don't know", then the newspaper shouting from the rooftops "ISIS may have captured RAF man", there would be mass panic !

Just some thoughts.

 

[guruagain]

I can't remember, it may have been on the previous thread. I'll try and hunt it down this evening.

Can any locals confirm the site at Barton mills is household only and not used as a transfer station. If that is the case where was the bin lorrys final destination?

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The Suffolk Council website says that all household sites can be used for trade waste (at a charge) but I wouldn't expect this to include serious trade waste collectors.

http://www.greensuffolk.org/recycling/trade-waste/
"From Oct 2012 all 11 Household Waste Recycling Centres now accept commercial waste at a charge. The scheme is specifically targeted at small businesses and travelling tradesmen who may not have the resource or the volume of waste to justify a commercial collection. The trade waste will now be accepted within the household waste containers. "

 

[Amonet]

I think the way he left the club might be somewhere between leaving of his own accord and getting thrown out. He might not have been literally thrown out or ejected but just a quiet word from the bouncer that it was time to call it a night, and so Corrie left to go get food?

The three youngsters were asked, early on in the investigation, to come forward in case they'd seen anything. It was reported that the youngsters had been found and the police had talked to them, but it was either said or implied that they didn't have any information to add to the investigation.

 

[Amonet]

From what I could tell, the D notice doesn't necessarily mean a story has to go dead, it isn't the same as a blackout, though a blackout might be applied due to a D notice, but it might just mean that some names, locations, details, etc, shouldn't be revealed?

The national media going quiet is not really surprising if there are no new leads to report on.. This is exactly what happens if there's no 'news' to report about a story like this, and it will be the local papers that tend to look for a few more stories about the case so they can keep local readers updated even when they really have to reach for something to post .... something like "Missing Corrie's puppy cries for his master every night". You have to have 'new' news to keep stories in the national media, and there hasn't been any 'new' news since Corrie was reported missing.

Additionally, if the police believe that a missing person is still in a limited area that can be covered by local news, then they probably won't even want national media involved. National media can mean police have to chase a dozen, "I saw Corrie in the Falkland Islands" posts every week, which could be from well-meaning people who saw someone who did look like the missing person, or it could be from someone who's looking for attention and really saw nothing. If the police find a trail out of the area, then they can make a national appeal for information. But so far I've only seen them make local appeals for information in the Bury St Edmunds, Honington, Barton Mills, Mildenhall general area, including any villages around those places...you don't use national media to make that kind of appeal.

 

[MidsummersDay]

I agree. However, I remember a certain middle aged canoeist from the north east of England allegedly going missing a few years ago. His wife posted a missing persons report. His insurance company payed out and all was fine for a few years. Right up until he was photographed buying a property abroad with his wife....
Just a thought

 

[MidsummersDay]

As far as my everyday life is concerned, I don't care at all what someone's sexual orientation is as long as it's legal and consenting adults involved. If a couple are happy together, then I don't care what their genders are.

But this is a missing person inquiry. Sexual orientation goes toward victimology. It might affect the missing person's behaviour. It might come into it the other side as we're looking at a potential perp's perception of the missing person and what the perp is looking for in this situation and what they feel when they look at the missing individual, which might be a 'signal' that's only in the perp's mind and that the missing person is not purposely trying to send out.

Let's say Corrie is purely straight. A car approaches him and the driver says, "hey, pretty boy, want to come down to Barton Mills with me <wink wink>"? Corrie says "Nope, I'm not that way inclined."

Let's say Corrie is in the closet. His reaction could then be completely different. He's just been out for the night, watching his mates and their girlfriends or mates getting lucky. He feels like the odd one out. So if he gets a drive-by offer, then he's not going to worry about his appearance, not the same way as going out for a pre-arranged date, he's had too much to drink, inhibitions are looser, and he's being picked up so his appearance doesn't matter so much, besides he went out looking 'nice' with his good shirt on and his hair combed, so he thinks "why not?"

Then we have the perp's perceptions and desires. Corrie's sexuality doesn't have to match the perp's want list other than in appearance. If the perp is on the lookout for a blonde, fit, 'pretty boy', then just seeing Corrie walking down the street alone late at night could make something 'click' in this perp's brain, and they're not too obvious when they offer him a lift, because they don't want to scare him away...but there's only one thing in the back of the perp's mind. Being inebriated and not personally caring about anyone's sexual orientation, Corrie isn't enough on the lookout for signs of something being wrong when our perp, driving along, conversationally asks "what are you doing alone at this time on a Friday night, had a fight with your girlfriend?" And the perp, if he's fixated on a goal where he's willing to use force, doesn't even care how wiling the person is, he's become fixated on this person and on his goal, so even if there's no chance of willing participation, our perp is determined to get what he wants.

..and this is exactly the angle of interrogation I was trying to suggest. <modsnip> by ignoring this observation completely I think is bad policy.

 

[MidsummersDay]

I mentioned in the first thread that I was looking at the roads on the map. Back then I was focusing on a more distant zoom that took in Honington to Barton Mills, and even beyond.

Now I've zoomed in and put north at top and I'm looking for prime places for a driver to slow down enough to offer someone a lift at 3.30am to 4am, and I'm hoping someone with local knowledge might be able to critique/examine my ideas?

So I've got Corrie coming up Short Brackland and I want to get him to a place where he could get picked up and taken to Barton Mills. I'm looking at Cannon Street, and more at Northgate Street. Either of those would have Corrie and our hypothetical vehicle, if one comes into play, heading up to the roundabout that goes to Compiegne Way, which would take Corrie to Tesco's, Tesco Filling Station, or back to Honington. But, if a car picks him up at this point, instead of going around Compiegne Way and the Tesco's roundabout, it's going to have to go up the A1101 to Mildenhall Road?

So a vehicle has to make a choice at the earlier roundabout as to whether it's going Compiegne Way OR the A1101 to Barton Mills? It can't take a wrong turn on the Tesco's roundabout that takes the vehicle, either accidentally or accidentally on purpose, down to Barton Mills. A vehicle that wanted an organic route would have to decide on Barton Mills prior to Compiegne Way and Tesco's roundabout?

If this is right, how does this affect our case?

Without examining the map system I can't be sure but I'll look later. With regards to your rough suggestion it seems to fit. However, if we're lead to believe the 'facts with regards to; the bin area-Hollow Road sighting-Tesco sniffer dog scent, then t DOES fit. The only issue I have is trying to make that working model fit the timeframe offered up by the 'facts'.

 

[Kitkat28]

The lack of interest and reporting in the media is not really any different to any other young man that goes missing. D notice or no D notice. I had never heard of Luke Durbin until this thread. I vaguely remember Damien Nettles going missing, but only found out the details from the documentary a few months ago. Adrian Lynch, I only read about on Websleuths and didn't even know he had been found until I checked the thread a couple of weeks ago. The young French man in Scotland? I can't even name him without looking on here, and I have seen no coverage about him. Right at the beginning of the first thread, I said that no-one seemed that interested as Corrie is a young man, not a pretty, middle class white girl.

 

[Goldilox]

What is a "Thunderclap"?


Also, just because he dresses nicely and wore a pink shirt doesn't mean anything about his sexuality. A lot of fellas in the UK take very good care of their appearance.

In NZ less so, to the point that a guy got beaten up recently (a family man) walking home, after a night out, for wearing a pink polo shirt!