GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Gigi-G]

This brings me back to the build up in the week or 2 before Ellie died. There was pandemonium in that household by all accounts, and I think it was because of their paranoia that they would come under investigation again. School headmaster said he couldn't approach Social Services because he had no evidence of harm, but I don't think JG/BB knew this. It's everywhere you look - in the aggression with the school, him finding her diary and exploding, Ellie's injuries from 1st to 14th Oct, first the broken scapula and then the later skull trauma - and still having facial bruises and face paint on 27th Oct, JG's letter to BB saying wtte 'it's not working - I'm heartbroken, you hate me, I'd do anything for you and I proved that last week', the hasty visit to the docs with the ear-pinning excuse, McDonalds visit with grandparents. Now I've read this morning that their neighbour was invited to their flat on the Saturday night (2 days before Ellie was murdered) to a loud party and she said she was surprised the children didn't wake up. I think they were in a frenzy. JG took the Friday off work and told them BB was away. I think she was running around like a headless chicken, putting out fires. Half term looms up, and he is not happy. He clashes with Ellie, and Ellie is 'difficult', not in the sense that we would think she was difficult, because she was being absolutely brave and normal and reacting to living with all this violence and brutality and chaos and having no one on her side and no one she could talk to in confidence - even her grandparents, but difficult in his eyes - not submissive and silent. She was his punch bag, and now it looks as if YD was also on the receiving end of his fists, or possibly a back slam into a wall or piece of furniture.

When I see that very short clip of his police interview all I see is guilt written all over him, and a vile evil bully. It just exudes from him even when he is putting on his innocent act. And JG's interview, I can't actually believe the woman who was interviewing her didn't pick up on her falseness. It was so obvious she was lying, to me anyway. That's not what grief looks like, even if there were tears.

Something else I've noticed about them both is that they frequently said in court, wtte I'm not guilty - or he's not guilty - 100%. If that's not a giveaway statement I don't know what is. Innocence doesn't need 100% or any percentage - that is said for effect and to try and convince. Innocence doesn't need to try and convince, it just presents itself and it rings through like a clear bell.

Things were definitely reaching a climax. As something would of given sooner or later and JG knew it. She was busy couple creating some kind of action plan if she needed one. By inviting neighbours. Docs visits. BB's dad. Cornwall visits. Iain BB's friend and the odd fone call. Wheels were very much in motion. There was a pinnacle... something that was due to happen or happening. Ellie happened.. and those wheels had to pick up speed rapido

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[Gigi-G]

Just popping on as a recurring thought keeps flashing into my head re JG demanding/overuse of opiates in hospital. If they were given in tablet form could she have been stockpiling them to give to Ellie to treat painful injuries that they didn't want doctors to know about? On the one hand it's an horrific thought that Ellie may have been so injured that JG knew she needed serious pain medication, on the other hand I think I'd prefer to know that Ellie at least received some kind of pain relief for her injuries.

I had discussed this scenario in pm. Yes. Very much so.

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[Gigi-G]

Lessons to be learned. They say that every time. But our local authorities have lack of time staff and resources.
Simple option. Warrant + Police = entry to child's home.
To prove or substantiate abuse/ well fare of Child

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[Gigi-G]

When a judge makes a deeply flawed decision - how can they be publicly held to account? Key question arising from Ben #Butler case.

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[Gigi-G]

When a judge makes a deeply flawed decision - how can they be publicly held to account? Key question arising from Ben #Butler case.

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Danny Shaw BBC tweet.

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[michelle230]

Hi Cottonweaver - I was thinking about that. I have no idea what the legal situation is - co-incidence that Hogg retired a week before the murder trial began - NOT!! But I don`t know about accountability in that area of work, especially now she * has* retired, and/or whether civil claims can be brought. I was thinking along the lines of a "********" page to help the grandparents financially to pursue whatever avenues they felt they could. After all it was running out of money at a crucial stage which meant they had to give up the fight to keep Ellie. Is that something worth thinking about?

 

[michelle230]

Hi Tortoise - lol it is time consuming when you get so involved in following a case! Loads of things to catch up with........I would like to continue going to OB to follow the other case I had become interested in but I daren`t allow myself to become too engrossed!
On a brighter note - the "door guys" as opposed to the "door lady" waved me in - mints and all lol

 

[Gigi-G]

Take a look at @DissidentGirl's Tweet: https://twitter.com/DissidentGirl/status/745594079128469504?s=09

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[Pink Dahlia]

Just finished reading the SCR.

It's shocking the S4c rushed the transition as it wasn't going well rather than slow it down!! I mean really, you don't need to have specialist training to figure that one out

and

the Judicary failed to involve itself with the review. How on earth is that allowed? THIS is the one thing that MUST change for the future. However it means judges passing laws that will put THEM under greater scrutiny and accountability of their actions, so possibly will not be happening anytime soon.

 

[Gigi-G]

Ugh idk if I've an error issue here now ... :fedup:

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[cottonweaver]

As I said above above.... Police intervention after non compliance with agencies

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Yep - you said this from the get-go. They were giving all the agencies the run around alongside their other deceptive strategies listed in that review report.

 

[cottonweaver]

Just popping on as a recurring thought keeps flashing into my head re JG demanding/overuse of opiates in hospital. If they were given in tablet form could she have been stockpiling them to give to Ellie to treat painful injuries that they didn't want doctors to know about? On the one hand it's an horrific thought that Ellie may have been so injured that JG knew she needed serious pain medication, on the other hand I think I'd prefer to know that Ellie at least received some kind of pain relief for her injuries.

MMmmm. Remember Gigi also guessing she E had been doped.
Think this is plausible CP, how on earth could he cope with a crying child in pain, they must have been "pacifying " E so as not to disturb him.
She may have used her stash for E as well as have been getting out of it herself, to blot it all out.

PS suggestion no. 3!, as he is described as a cokehead on the estate, they could be selling on tablets too. They were in rent arrears the report says, housing was on their tail.

 

[soozieqtips]

I didn't keep up with the trial, but followed what was going on via the news. I haven't commented on this thread yet, but I have just got to say that when a senior judge in the family court can make the decision that she did (virtually condemning Ellie to a certain death) then what the hell else is going on in the family court that we don't know about? This is very scary stuff. There is virtually not a single human being on this planet who would have thought it safe to return Ellie to Butler, and yet Hoggs did exactly that, ignoring advice from the police, Sutton council and Ellie's grandparents. A senior judge. People like her are deciding people's fate? While I know she is not the one who killed Ellie, if she hadn't made the inexplicable decision to send her back to an unsafe home, Ellie would not have been murdered by Butler.

If there is actual justice in this life, then the judge should be accountable for the part she played in allowing this to happen. Ellie's welfare was not considered at all by this judge. She seems to have gone out of her way to make absolutely sure that Ellie was sent back to Butler. It's beyond incredulous. As for SFC, are they going to feature in the case review? Will they be accountable? Poor little Ellie. What a terrifying way to die. And it was avoidable. I've watched the interview with Neal Gray. What a lovely lovely man. He and his wife obviously doted on Ellie. How cruel everything turned out for them, and with assistance from the judge.

 

[cottonweaver]

This brings me back to the build up in the week or 2 before Ellie died. There was pandemonium in that household by all accounts, and I think it was because of their paranoia that they would come under investigation again. School headmaster said he couldn't approach Social Services because he had no evidence of harm, but I don't think JG/BB knew this. It's everywhere you look - in the aggression with the school, him finding her diary and exploding, Ellie's injuries from 1st to 14th Oct, first the broken scapula and then the later skull trauma - and still having facial bruises and face paint on 27th Oct, JG's letter to BB saying wtte 'it's not working - I'm heartbroken, you hate me, I'd do anything for you and I proved that last week', the hasty visit to the docs with the ear-pinning excuse, McDonalds visit with grandparents. Now I've read this morning that their neighbour was invited to their flat on the Saturday night (2 days before Ellie was murdered) to a loud party and she said she was surprised the children didn't wake up. I think they were in a frenzy. JG took the Friday off work and told them BB was away. I think she was running around like a headless chicken, putting out fires. Half term looms up, and he is not happy. He clashes with Ellie, and Ellie is 'difficult', not in the sense that we would think she was difficult, because she was being absolutely brave and normal and reacting to living with all this violence and brutality and chaos and having no one on her side and no one she could talk to in confidence - even her grandparents, but difficult in his eyes - not submissive and silent. She was his punch bag, and now it looks as if YD was also on the receiving end of his fists, or possibly a back slam into a wall or piece of furniture.

When I see that very short clip of his police interview all I see is guilt written all over him, and a vile evil bully. It just exudes from him even when he is putting on his innocent act. And JG's interview, I can't actually believe the woman who was interviewing her didn't pick up on her falseness. It was so obvious she was lying, to me anyway. That's not what grief looks like, even if there were tears.

Something else I've noticed about them both is that they frequently said in court, wtte I'm not guilty - or he's not guilty - 100%. If that's not a giveaway statement I don't know what is. Innocence doesn't need 100% or any percentage - that is said for effect and to try and convince. Innocence doesn't need to try and convince, it just presents itself and it rings through like a clear bell.

Need to return to these points once my brain has settled from the info overload of yesterday ( That 50 page review /report)
All great points - as you say, the build up and then he flips under pressure. The SSRC report appears to bear this out.
Didn't know about the neighbour invite to the party - do u rem which paper that was in?( Keeping the neighbour sweet? JG has had a few "tip offs" against her in the past AFAIK, benefits. Or is it just the neighbour may have heard something recently? Was it M.Cook neighbour?)


I will go and check the report dates to see what Sutton services were doing around this date ,it's so long, here's one that was easier to find

school actions :After further prevarication and unauthorised absence in the autumn term, a meeting date had been reset for November 2013.

and
[

QUOTE]On other occasions such as dealing with their rent arrears and the concerns that Child D’s

school had regarding the level of attendance, Mr F and Ms M would do just enough to keep

professionals from escalating concerns to a higher level.[/QUOTE

and pg 12 this is the final "pressure " date I can find, May 2013

"Parents continued to be resistant and hostile to any Children’s Services involvement and Mr

F submitted complaints. The final contact between Children’s Services and the parents was

in May 2013 when the MASH received a copy of a letter from the Consultant

Ophthalmologist to the parents regarding Child D having missed appointments. The Social

Worker in the MASH sent a standard letter to the parents offering help and stating that no

action would be taken at this time. This resulted in a very aggressive telephone call from Mr

F followed by a formal complaint from his lawyer.

Prior to that CServices had offered them support, offer not taken up. JG& BB had separated briefly in Jan 2013 and last S4C contact was March 2013.

Conc. Only recorded external "pressure" in autumn was gparents & school potentially ( and rent arrears. )

 

[cottonweaver]

Welcome soozie.

All the agencies had to get an independent reviewer to look at what they may have done wrong - only ones that didn't were judiciary and the independent social workers S4C.
I hope NGray gets what he is asking for this time around, a public enquiry so that risks for other kids are reduced. They never listened last time, maybe they will have the decency this time. That's the justice he wants - transparency & change.

Can you believe that Hogg disregarded his past convictions in that way - that incl. a prison stretch for beating up an ex GF! Domestic violence was low on her radar !

It's interesting, the DTelegraph have been banging on about Family Courts for a long time now, meanwhile the Guardian which is the go-to paper for those in Social Work , don't often criticise. To be fair they have this week though.

 

[flutterby]

Welcome soozie.

All the agencies had to get an independent reviewer to look at what they may have done wrong - only ones that didn't were judiciary and the independent social workers S4C.

Moo but probably the two who were most in the wrong

 

[soozieqtips]

Can you believe that Hogg disregarded his past convictions in that way - that incl. a prison stretch for beating up an ex GF! Domestic violence was low on her radar !

snipped

BIB - no I can't believe it. I'm incredulous. She also defended him by saying he wasn't violent with children, only adults?? That's okay then? She can accept the man is violent, has a history of violence, but still thinks it's okay to send a vulnerable child to live with him? I don't really know why I'm surprised that DV is minimised by the judiciary. Do you remember a few years ago when a barrister and a judge (married to each other) ended up in court because the husband had repeatedly punched the wife in the face (because the cleaner was still there when he got home, or something trivial like that) and when they were in court, the wife said she had punched herself in the face? The wife perjured herself to protect her bullying husband? And there these people are on their high horses deciding the fate of the common person. How much more of this goes on that we don't hear about? Luckily, the judge hearing the case didn't believe the wife.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jun/22/judge-probation-beating-wife

 

[Gigi-G]

MMmmm. Remember Gigi also guessing she E had been doped.
Think this is plausible CP, how on earth could he cope with a crying child in pain, they must have been "pacifying " E so as not to disturb him.
She may have used her stash for E as well as have been getting out of it herself, to blot it all out.

PS suggestion no. 3!, as he is described as a cokehead on the estate, they could be selling on tablets too. They were in rent arrears the report says, housing was on their tail.

It's easy enough to get anything via Internet. Altho I'm assuming that using fake names in different areas on a late Saturday afternoon. I have done myself. Running short on meds and got a mini supply from shop pharmacy. Or village chemist. Easy enough done.
As for 'cokehead' could be anything. He reminds me of being 'hyper' wondering if he's got some methylphenidate somewhere. What they prescribe to ADHD-ers. It's an 'upper' to a non ADHD-er. And works opposite as a calmer to an ADHD-er.
I know this as my youngest was diagnosed by paediatrician when he was 7. He's now older...like me. :facepalm:

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[cottonweaver]

Hi Cottonweaver - I was thinking about that. I have no idea what the legal situation is - co-incidence that Hogg retired a week before the murder trial began - NOT!! But I don`t know about accountability in that area of work, especially now she * has* retired, and/or whether civil claims can be brought. I was thinking along the lines of a "********" page to help the grandparents financially to pursue whatever avenues they felt they could. After all it was running out of money at a crucial stage which meant they had to give up the fight to keep Ellie. Is that something worth thinking about?

Only just seen this Michelle, as I couldn't work out the asterisks - a"G0w Foond Me" .

Yes he has lost all his savings, his wife, Ellie and his peace of mind .I think that is a Brilliaint idea.

What do others think? Gigi could spead it through the Twitterverse and anyone else who uses FB etc. I Must admit, I don't use them despite having had accounts from day 1 and I definitely don't want to start using them now. ( I do enough time wasting on WS.)

Is anyone familiar with it?

 

[Gigi-G]

I didn't keep up with the trial, but followed what was going on via the news. I haven't commented on this thread yet, but I have just got to say that when a senior judge in the family court can make the decision that she did (virtually condemning Ellie to a certain death) then what the hell else is going on in the family court that we don't know about? This is very scary stuff. There is virtually not a single human being on this planet who would have thought it safe to return Ellie to Butler, and yet Hoggs did exactly that, ignoring advice from the police, Sutton council and Ellie's grandparents. A senior judge. People like her are deciding people's fate? While I know she is not the one who killed Ellie, if she hadn't made the inexplicable decision to send her back to an unsafe home, Ellie would not have been murdered by Butler.

If there is actual justice in this life, then the judge should be accountable for the part she played in allowing this to happen. Ellie's welfare was not considered at all by this judge. She seems to have gone out of her way to make absolutely sure that Ellie was sent back to Butler. It's beyond incredulous. As for SFC, are they going to feature in the case review? Will they be accountable? Poor little Ellie. What a terrifying way to die. And it was avoidable. I've watched the interview with Neal Gray. What a lovely lovely man. He and his wife obviously doted on Ellie. How cruel everything turned out for them, and with assistance from the judge.

Hi and welcome soozieqtips.
It's something you and us and a lot of the general public are asking.
Being on this case from the early days we all felt there was more at foot. But legal restrictions all we could do is challenge different analogies.
With Grampy Neal I'm hoping he does get his answers. God forbid. He needs his closure. As do JGs siblings. As for Justice Mary Hogg. I feel that she has to reply to the outpouring of questions. That is the minimum I would expect.
But it's not all blame at her door. There were many agencies involved. And they all need to show their accountability.

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