Found Deceased UK - George Wilson, 41, Nottingham, 8 Sept 1963

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This one (concerned with the Moors Murders) mentions a truck abandoned in 1963, found at a gas station not far from the knife that killed George:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...orge-wilson nottingham murder&pg=5716,4401271

Possibly? the same truck? from 1963, examined as possible evidence in Great Train Robbery:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7049,3604642&dq=nottingham&hl=en

George found "on the pavement at the side of his premises" (and not out front? was there an alley alongside?)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...J&dq=george-wilson nottingham&pg=5251,1199915

Woah... --exactly- (almost to the minute, they say..) one year after George's murder, another Nottingham pub licensee is stabbed in the street, near her home.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...eorge-wilson nottingham murder&pg=5805,802070

Interesting snippet:

"It stands on Southwell Street on the edge of the old Sneinton wholesale fruit and veg market and was permitted to open early to cater for the market workers who finished work in the early hours of the morning."

http://nottinghamviews.wordpress.com/tag/murder/

Pic of street & pub in 1963:

NTGM002280.jpg
 
Thanks, Robin - hope your compy starts behaving soon. I had a look on Googlemaps:

http://goo.gl/maps/XkVhF

I used a nearby Indian restaurant as a landmark here, but you can see where Polser Brook intersects with Radcliffe Road just a little further on. I'm supposing this is the exact place where the knife was found.

So it's about 5 miles from Sneinton.

Thinking aloud about 'who sheathes a murder weapon?' (as opposed to wiping it off and chucking it down the nearest drain) - maybe somebody who was wearing the knife attached to his belt.

And/or somebody who wanted to keep it. And did, until he got 5 miles away, where he ditched it, sheath and all. No saying how long after the murder it was ditched, but as it still had fibre evidence and blood on it, I'd say the same night.

What I'm finding a bit odd, as well, is that the person with the knife had to cross a fairly substantial river to get there, likely. So why carry it over a river, and then dump it by a creek a couple of miles away?

The sole news report I could find on the murder of Elizabeth McLachlan says her pub was in "Robin Hood Chase" - problem is, that's in Sheffield?

The closest Robin Hood-named places in Nottingham are a Street and a Way. The report says the pub was "about a mile" from Pretty Windows - so I am guessing it was in Robin Hood Street, 0.9 miles away. Nottingham Way is about 2 miles.

I'd love to know more about Elizabeth's murder, as police to thought the crimes linked, at the time. Here's a list of probable reasons why:

- proximity - both murders within a mile of each other
- timing- Elizabeth is killed one year to the hour after George
- COD - both victims were fatally stabbed from behind
- victimology- both victims were pub landlords
 
Sorry for the Aus-spam.. Just a thought on Elizabeth's murder, though - I think the timing could have been an incredible co-incidence? Apparently she was outside, going for a phone to call a doctor regarding her three week old baby.

So sad - a new mum.. But I can't see a killer predicting that she'd be out at that hour making an emergency phone call. She'd have to have a pattern of behaviour, for that to happen.

If the rest is coincidental as well, it would be just too damn spooky, though.
 
Were Bowie knives common in that area? It really seems like such a large and noticeable knife for someone to be carrying around with them.

And, yes, Ausgirl, I think you're onto something. The murderer wanted to keep the knife. He must have seen someone coming and realized he had to ditch it. Or something like that.

In George's case, I can see that someone may have known in advance that he would be outside around the time he was. He sounds like he had some kind of prearranged meeting with someone.

But, a year later, Elizabeth steps out to make a call about her little baby.. that seems a lot more random... Maybe she wasn't the intended victim?
 
Try putting in Google -

Robin Hood Chase, Nottingham NG3

The Chase is a walkway joining St Ann's Well road to the estate behind. Just a few shops, chemist, bookies etc. Another place you'll get mugged at night. Many of the shootings we have take place in St Ann's, usually drug related.

During the 60's I can remember people carrying pen knives, possibly the Mods and Rocker groups carried flick knives but I never saw Bowie knives.
I apologize if it's already been said but an explanation for the knife being dumped where it was could be the murderer thought he was about to be stopped by a police car so through it out.
 
http://goo.gl/maps/fxm7c

So about 0.8 miles (18 mins, maybe a 15 min brisk walk) between George and Elizabeth's murders. Cheers, Robin! And yup, knife chucked from a car was the police theory, and it makes perfect sense considering where it was found, there's probably no easy access from the road just there.

From the road, on Google street view, that bridge is small and really overgrown, lots of trees. I can't help feeling 'this was local' - they hung onto the knife across the big river, and dumped it in the shrubby creek.. It could well have been that the area felt more 'secure' to them, ie, familiar.

Dunno how it was in 1963, but there's presently two quite separate lanes there - I'd like to know which side of the creek in that general road area the knife was found on. It'd probably show what side of the road the killers were on, anyway. And thus maybe where they were coming from, or going to..

December.. I dunno. The timing needs to be entered into Ripley's Believe It or Not, or it was not a coincidence. Adding the other similarities REALLY stretches the bounds of probability, though, doesn't it?
 
Can we backtrack to the Elizabeth McLachlan stabbing. Was she a landlady ? Did she die ? It says she was on the Chase, stabbed, taken to hospital by an anonymous guy and she and the baby were in hospital together. Now, if I'm correct that sounds a little odd to me, spurned lover type 'odd' Could she be covering for a row with a lover/husband who dropped her off at the hospital ?
I apologize if it's me getting the facts wrong.

I also wondered what side of the road the car was on and the throwing of the knife.

Edited to add before I freeze :)

Jack the hat was stabbed 3 times, chest, face, chest again, by one of the Krays.
 
Maybe the target was another woman who was expected to be in that location at that time, but Elizabeth so happened to need a phone. Mistaking her for his target, the person doing this got her. I wonder if there is another woman right around there who would pretty well fit Elizabeth's description.

Also, what happened to the bar after this? Was it immediately sold? Because, if it was, that is likely the motive. This guy didn't want to sell it, so they offed him figuring his widow wouldn't be able to run it without him. (Wildly speculating)
 
Quite right, Robin - not killed, was doing "fair" in hospital. Probably survived - therefore, likely, why there's not a lot of news on it.. Which is annoying, but there we are. I'm sure I read she was a 'licensee'. Or I'm going mad. Both are as likely. ;)

I'm still taking at as an attempted murder - stabbing someone in the back, it'd have to be the general idea. I wonder if the records of that case are around anywhere, though? Since it's not a homicide...

I know gossip and rumour aren't really things we're meant to type about, but there's been a few sites mentioning the persistent local rumour that the police had a very good suspect in George's murder but didn't have enough hard evidence to make an arrest. I'd love to know who that was... and what they thought his motive was.

eta: ooh just read the Lucy Tinslop thread. Nutter with knife, in Nottingham, 1969. Not so much George's murder, but the attack on Elizabeth.. Sad the pathology report's not available.
 
Ausgirl said:
Sorry for the Aus-spam.. Just a thought on Elizabeth's murder, though - I think the timing could have been an incredible co-incidence? Apparently she was outside, going for a phone to call a doctor regarding her three week old baby.

So sad - a new mum.. But I can't see a killer predicting that she'd be out at that hour making an emergency phone call. She'd have to have a pattern of behaviour, for that to happen.

If the rest is coincidental as well, it would be just too damn spooky, though.
Click to expand...
Great work here - "Aus-spam," ha! not a bit - by you and everyone posting really. Nice to start a thread as I did here, then see an abundance of support for and posts on it. (Rare too sometimes!)

Thanks everyone.
 
Robin Hood said:
Aus, It's possible he was trying to impress somebody of the protection style fraternity.
I have been told members of the Krays gang were trying to apply their trade in Nottingham at about this time. There were meetings going off in back rooms of certain Nottingham drinking establishments on how local business people were going to deal with it.
As for the 'Robin Hood style hat' Either the wearer or witness may have participated in some strong Notts Ale ;)
Click to expand...
A former Notts police officer who helped thwart a bid by the Krays to start a protection racket in Nottingham's pubs and clubs has died.

Charles Read was part of a team of elite officers who confronted associates of the infamous London crime twins.
---
Police had heard in the early 60s that they had plans to expand their ruthless reign to the East Midlands.

"They wanted to get protection money out of pubs and clubs in Nottingham and Leicester," said Gordon Harris, one of Mr Read's former colleagues.
---
Click to expand...
http://www.nottinghampost.com/Tribu...thwart-Krays/story-12269738-detail/story.html

Probably wasn't the case but I like the "resisted-protection-racket" angle!
 
I should have realized this when Holm Pierrepoint was mentioned. The M1 motorway hadn't been built in 1963.The only way to go North or South was to use the A1 road (unless you wanted to spend hours on back roads) The A1 was a very busy road, hence why the M1 was built. Anybody wanting to go South quickly from the city center would go via Holm Pierrepoint, Bingham, Grantham.

M1 motorway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Rugby to Leeds, 1965 to 1968
The continuation of the motorway from Junction 18 towards Yorkshire was carried out as a series of extensions between 1965 and 1968. Diverging from the A5, the motorway takes a more northerly route through the East Midlands, via Leicester, Loughborough, Nottingham to Sheffield, where the M18 splits from the M1 at Junction 32 to head to Doncaster.

Edited to add from Wiki The A1

The A1 is the longest numbered road in the UK, at 410 miles (660 km). It connects London, the capital of England and the United Kingdom, with Edinburgh, the capital of Scotland. It passes through and near North London, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Stevenage, Letchworth, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark-upon-Trent, Retford, Doncaster, Leeds, York, Ripon, Darlington, Gateshead, Newcastle upon Tyne, and Berwick-upon-Tweed.[2]
 
It seems like these type of guys would use the backroads to avoid all the A1 traffic. Much less likely to run into a cop and have to ditch the ol' bowie knife.

Mooo!
 
I think I'm on board with the protection racket theory as well. It fits with the 'death threat' phone call, and something about the sheathed knife bends my thoughts that way as well.

The obvious overkill bothered me, there, but I think if someone had something to prove, in the context of a racket.. yep, that fits, also.

I wonder if George had been lured out, somehow?
 
Since no money was taken, I don't believe this would have been a death penalty crime. By this time, I don't believe murder carried the death penalty in the U.K. unless it was a killing perpetrated in the furtherance of another crime, a murder with a firearm or the second and subsequent murders of a serial killer. It doesn't look like any of these applied to this case.
 
One of the things about this crime, the police investigation was very impressive for it's day. The police brought along a Forensic "Caravan" and parked it outside the pub. Blackie the dog - a b/w border collie, not a recognised breed in 1963, so called a "mongrel" by the press - had his coat combed for fibre evidence, and they searched the local tip with an industrial-sized electromagnet. I believe they found "some knives". I bet!
 
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