FOXINBOX
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Found Deceased UK - George Wilson, 41, Nottingham, 8 Sept 1963
- Thread starter wfgodot
- Start date
FOXINBOX
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My notes on the case, if they are any use...
All dates written yyyy/mm/dd
WILSON, George [43]
DATE of Crime Saturday 1963.09.07
HOLIDAYS, observances & Popular Culture on this date:-
US Labor Day Weekend
Anniversary: WWII friendly fire incident, "The Battle of Barking Creek"
Music Charts:
UK [NME] Billie Jay Kramer: Bad to Me
USA [Billboard] The Angels: My Boyfriend's Back
BACKGROUND: Unable to trace much due to George's common name.
1963, Licensee of the Fox and Grapes public house, [a.k.a The Pretty Windows]
Previously, licensees of the Walton Hotel in Chesterfield [Recently- 2020- lost]
RELATIONSHIPS Wife, Alberta, known as "Betty" or "Peggy" [39]
m. 1946
Son, 10;
Daughter:
RESIDENCE:
FOX & GRAPES pub
@ the corner of Avenue B & Avenue C, Sneinton,
Nottingham,
NG1 1DL
LAST SEEN George was last seen by the witnesses @ 12am in the saloon bar as he prepared to take Blackie the dog for a walk
CRIME SCENE The doorstep of the Fox & Grapes
INJURIES 14 stab wounds to face, neck and back. No last words. A knife was found, see pic. But the police failed to identify it. To me, it looks like an American hunting knife.
EMBELISHMENT None; George's body was not abused in any way.
MOTIVE No sexual assault or robery.
WITNESSES 1) Barman, Anthony
2) Arthur & Irene, assistant managers of the pub
3) George's wife, Betty.
4) Dog, Blackie [Border Collie, described as mongrel. BCs were not yet a recognised breed], although at crime scene, did not bark..
5) The children were asleep in the upstairs living quarters.
6) Young couple in car which stopped nearby @ 12.50 am. [No desciption of car]
Man [20-25] wearing whitish jersey [sweater] with a blue pattern.
Girl [About 20] with fair hair, wearing light-coloured jeans.
When they realised the emergency services had been called, they were about to leave, when the car radiator boiled. They were towed away by
7) A stocky man in his 30s.
SUSPECTS 1) The Running Man, in a white raincoat, wearing a "Robin Hood" or "Frank Sinatra" hat, who was seen nearby
2) "The Man From Chesterfield." A man recently released from prison on a minor offence who had been questioned about two murders in Chesterfield that had been associated with the Walton Hotel , then run by the Wilsons- "The Bubble Car Murder" and a carbon copy murder. In those cases, both victims had been attacked with a blunt object. The suspect was released after questioning
3) The man in the light-coloured suit who knocked at thr door of the Fox & Grapes between 11.30-12.30
4) A soldier, also from Chesterfield.who was on leave at the time of the murder
POST SCRIPT Phone call to Betty
POLICE INVESTIGATION Mobile HQ, a caravan set up outsde The Fox & Grapes. The coat of Blackie the dog was combed for fibre evidence. Drains, gutters and 70 tons of rubbish were searched for the knife using a 3 ton electro-magnet. "Some knives were found." Landladies were asked to contact the police if a lodger had suddenly left. Scotland Yard sent Supt. Fred Gerrard & Sgt. Frank Norden to aid the investigation.
INQUEST Coroner: Mr Anthony Rothers
Witnesses
1) Witness A, who claimed he and Witness B had planned to break into the Fox & Grapes on the night of the murder, and he further implicated Witness B [Allegations not listed)
2) Witness B. who denied all allegations
3) Betty Wilson, who stated that George had been worried about a threat to his life received about 2 months earlier, but she had no idea who might have killed her husband.
Verdict:- Murder by person or persons unknown.
All dates written yyyy/mm/dd
WILSON, George [43]
DATE of Crime Saturday 1963.09.07
HOLIDAYS, observances & Popular Culture on this date:-
US Labor Day Weekend
Anniversary: WWII friendly fire incident, "The Battle of Barking Creek"
Music Charts:
UK [NME] Billie Jay Kramer: Bad to Me
USA [Billboard] The Angels: My Boyfriend's Back
BACKGROUND: Unable to trace much due to George's common name.
1963, Licensee of the Fox and Grapes public house, [a.k.a The Pretty Windows]
Previously, licensees of the Walton Hotel in Chesterfield [Recently- 2020- lost]
RELATIONSHIPS Wife, Alberta, known as "Betty" or "Peggy" [39]
m. 1946
Son, 10;
Daughter:
RESIDENCE:
FOX & GRAPES pub
@ the corner of Avenue B & Avenue C, Sneinton,
Nottingham,
NG1 1DL
LAST SEEN George was last seen by the witnesses @ 12am in the saloon bar as he prepared to take Blackie the dog for a walk
CRIME SCENE The doorstep of the Fox & Grapes
INJURIES 14 stab wounds to face, neck and back. No last words. A knife was found, see pic. But the police failed to identify it. To me, it looks like an American hunting knife.
EMBELISHMENT None; George's body was not abused in any way.
MOTIVE No sexual assault or robery.
WITNESSES 1) Barman, Anthony
2) Arthur & Irene, assistant managers of the pub
3) George's wife, Betty.
4) Dog, Blackie [Border Collie, described as mongrel. BCs were not yet a recognised breed], although at crime scene, did not bark..
5) The children were asleep in the upstairs living quarters.
6) Young couple in car which stopped nearby @ 12.50 am. [No desciption of car]
Man [20-25] wearing whitish jersey [sweater] with a blue pattern.
Girl [About 20] with fair hair, wearing light-coloured jeans.
When they realised the emergency services had been called, they were about to leave, when the car radiator boiled. They were towed away by
7) A stocky man in his 30s.
SUSPECTS 1) The Running Man, in a white raincoat, wearing a "Robin Hood" or "Frank Sinatra" hat, who was seen nearby
2) "The Man From Chesterfield." A man recently released from prison on a minor offence who had been questioned about two murders in Chesterfield that had been associated with the Walton Hotel , then run by the Wilsons- "The Bubble Car Murder" and a carbon copy murder. In those cases, both victims had been attacked with a blunt object. The suspect was released after questioning
3) The man in the light-coloured suit who knocked at thr door of the Fox & Grapes between 11.30-12.30
4) A soldier, also from Chesterfield.who was on leave at the time of the murder
POST SCRIPT Phone call to Betty
POLICE INVESTIGATION Mobile HQ, a caravan set up outsde The Fox & Grapes. The coat of Blackie the dog was combed for fibre evidence. Drains, gutters and 70 tons of rubbish were searched for the knife using a 3 ton electro-magnet. "Some knives were found." Landladies were asked to contact the police if a lodger had suddenly left. Scotland Yard sent Supt. Fred Gerrard & Sgt. Frank Norden to aid the investigation.
INQUEST Coroner: Mr Anthony Rothers
Witnesses
1) Witness A, who claimed he and Witness B had planned to break into the Fox & Grapes on the night of the murder, and he further implicated Witness B [Allegations not listed)
2) Witness B. who denied all allegations
3) Betty Wilson, who stated that George had been worried about a threat to his life received about 2 months earlier, but she had no idea who might have killed her husband.
Verdict:- Murder by person or persons unknown.
the family here is looking for a motive to find closure...not a name or a conviction.
thinking the killer could well be dead, they put out a local appeal a couple of years ago, but nothing came of it...its possible that there's someone who knows about it who's now living abroad or hasn't heard of the appeal, so, if you do know, please contact Nottingham police in England...please. ignore any other stuff on the. internet because there are some inaccuracies there.
were going right. back to 1964....the victim, George Wilson, was a pub. landlord in Nottingham...the geography of the city centre has changed a bit...the pub, then called the fox and grapes...was the last pub before you hit the real city centre....there was the wholesale fruit and veg market. next to it and then a mens clothes shop before you hit the main city centre street. ...going. in the other direction were working mens houses and opposite the pub were the offices. and main station of the local bus company....so most of his customers were working men, employees of the bus company, and, at lunchtimes, market traders.
George had had a telephoned death. threat about 10 days before....probably nothing that unusual in his line of work...but what was different in this case was that it was made by a woman with a very refined and calm voice...I have seen the theory that there. was a. possible grudge against the brewery because 2 other landlords received threats...but there were. no similarities and id guess you'd. have gone. for. an official of the brewery rather than the. landlords.
the Friday night when George was murdered followed the usual routine....after closing up, his wife went to. bed and fell asleep almost immediately.....George tidied up and took the. dog for a walk through the alleys of the market....but what was really odd, and I think this is. the key, is that he. changed into his best. suit before he took the dog out...you wouldn't do it today, but if. you. go back to 1964 George would have had his one best suit which he'd wear for important family connections before being forced to buy another...his wife didn't know he'd put it on until she found him.
his. wife. was woken by the dog barking and crying outside. and found George who'd. been stabbed...hed crawled. from a market alley to the pub doorway, leaving a trail of blood.
there. were a group of early hippy types camped in the countryside just outside the city and word got around that George had thrown one of them out of the pub one night....but no one could. be found who. could confirm this...including Georges wife....but the. murder weapon was found in the river, close to where they were camping...to be fair., it. is one of the main roads out of. the city.
another theory that has been put forward is that it was a young, inexperienced burglar. who George. saw on the pub roof....apparently there was a large gang of Scottish burglars doing the rounds of pubs in England and one of the pubs drainpipes was broken...though no one knows if it was broken before...I think that. theory only holds. water if it was a particularly useless burglar...instead of running away from George and disappearing in the alleys, he must have run towards him....that road would have been very busy on a Friday night...not only with cars, but also with people. walking home after a Friday night in town...although. probably one the other side of the road to. the pub to avoid the markets mess, which wouldn't be cleared up until very early the following morning.
mugging people with knives was not common then, although its always possible that someone spotted Georges suit and thought he might have a lot of money on him...in those days, no one in Britain had credit cards.
of course, there are probably a thousand scams that pub landlords can get involved in.
just. one more. thing to note...incredibly there was a pub of the same name less than a. mile away, but there's no evidence to suggest it was a. case of. mistaken identity.
anyway, if anyone does know what the motive was, please. help his. family with this...even if its. something bad about him, they need to know
thinking the killer could well be dead, they put out a local appeal a couple of years ago, but nothing came of it...its possible that there's someone who knows about it who's now living abroad or hasn't heard of the appeal, so, if you do know, please contact Nottingham police in England...please. ignore any other stuff on the. internet because there are some inaccuracies there.
were going right. back to 1964....the victim, George Wilson, was a pub. landlord in Nottingham...the geography of the city centre has changed a bit...the pub, then called the fox and grapes...was the last pub before you hit the real city centre....there was the wholesale fruit and veg market. next to it and then a mens clothes shop before you hit the main city centre street. ...going. in the other direction were working mens houses and opposite the pub were the offices. and main station of the local bus company....so most of his customers were working men, employees of the bus company, and, at lunchtimes, market traders.
George had had a telephoned death. threat about 10 days before....probably nothing that unusual in his line of work...but what was different in this case was that it was made by a woman with a very refined and calm voice...I have seen the theory that there. was a. possible grudge against the brewery because 2 other landlords received threats...but there were. no similarities and id guess you'd. have gone. for. an official of the brewery rather than the. landlords.
the Friday night when George was murdered followed the usual routine....after closing up, his wife went to. bed and fell asleep almost immediately.....George tidied up and took the. dog for a walk through the alleys of the market....but what was really odd, and I think this is. the key, is that he. changed into his best. suit before he took the dog out...you wouldn't do it today, but if. you. go back to 1964 George would have had his one best suit which he'd wear for important family connections before being forced to buy another...his wife didn't know he'd put it on until she found him.
his. wife. was woken by the dog barking and crying outside. and found George who'd. been stabbed...hed crawled. from a market alley to the pub doorway, leaving a trail of blood.
there. were a group of early hippy types camped in the countryside just outside the city and word got around that George had thrown one of them out of the pub one night....but no one could. be found who. could confirm this...including Georges wife....but the. murder weapon was found in the river, close to where they were camping...to be fair., it. is one of the main roads out of. the city.
another theory that has been put forward is that it was a young, inexperienced burglar. who George. saw on the pub roof....apparently there was a large gang of Scottish burglars doing the rounds of pubs in England and one of the pubs drainpipes was broken...though no one knows if it was broken before...I think that. theory only holds. water if it was a particularly useless burglar...instead of running away from George and disappearing in the alleys, he must have run towards him....that road would have been very busy on a Friday night...not only with cars, but also with people. walking home after a Friday night in town...although. probably one the other side of the road to. the pub to avoid the markets mess, which wouldn't be cleared up until very early the following morning.
mugging people with knives was not common then, although its always possible that someone spotted Georges suit and thought he might have a lot of money on him...in those days, no one in Britain had credit cards.
of course, there are probably a thousand scams that pub landlords can get involved in.
just. one more. thing to note...incredibly there was a pub of the same name less than a. mile away, but there's no evidence to suggest it was a. case of. mistaken identity.
anyway, if anyone does know what the motive was, please. help his. family with this...even if its. something bad about him, they need to know
Laughing
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@CoverMeCagney @HayLouise
Calling to posters in the British Isles to get Mr. Wilson's case some attention.
TY, Laughing
Calling to posters in the British Isles to get Mr. Wilson's case some attention.
TY, Laughing
rosesfromangels
Amateur opinion and speculation only
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Knowing nothing about this case other than the post above, here is my gut reaction.
Wearing his best suit to go walk his dog (?!), suggests to me he was going to rendezvous with a lady friend. In this theory, an irate husband or boyfriend intervened, and a crime of passion occurred.
amateur opinion and speculation
Wearing his best suit to go walk his dog (?!), suggests to me he was going to rendezvous with a lady friend. In this theory, an irate husband or boyfriend intervened, and a crime of passion occurred.
amateur opinion and speculation
[yes,, that does seem the most likely....but not. the best place to meet. ..the police did say that they had. received information about his. private life but didn't say if they had reason to believe it or not.
sorry, I meant 1963 and not 1964.
somebody posted that they worked at the nursery next door called the pretty windows.
that was actually the nickname of the pub at the time...probably needed to distinguish it from the other fox and grapes nearby,...youll read that. it got that nickname because. of the stained glass windows it had...that was partly the reason...but it was actually an ironic twist on that because it used to be a favourite haunt. of poachers and you could see the bloody booty hung up on the walls through the windows....hence its present day name of poachers QUOTE="rosesfromangels, post: 16925574, member: 52868"]Knowing nothing about this case other than the post above, here is my gut reaction.
Wearing his best suit to go walk his dog (?!), suggests to me he was going to rendezvous with a lady friend. In this theory, an irate husband or boyfriend intervened, and a crime of passion occurred.
amateur opinion and speculation[/QUOTE]
ye
sorry, I meant 1963 and not 1964.
somebody posted that they worked at the nursery next door called the pretty windows.
that was actually the nickname of the pub at the time...probably needed to distinguish it from the other fox and grapes nearby,...youll read that. it got that nickname because. of the stained glass windows it had...that was partly the reason...but it was actually an ironic twist on that because it used to be a favourite haunt. of poachers and you could see the bloody booty hung up on the walls through the windows....hence its present day name of poachers QUOTE="rosesfromangels, post: 16925574, member: 52868"]Knowing nothing about this case other than the post above, here is my gut reaction.
Wearing his best suit to go walk his dog (?!), suggests to me he was going to rendezvous with a lady friend. In this theory, an irate husband or boyfriend intervened, and a crime of passion occurred.
amateur opinion and speculation[/QUOTE]
ye
the police have neither. ruled the running man etc nor said he's a suspect, as far as. I know...could just have been crazy drunks
there was talk going round the area at the time that the police knew who it was but couldn't prove it....but. I guess that happens in 99 per. cent of unsolved murders.
2 or. 3 years ago, I met someone whose father was working for nottm police at. the. time....I dropped a hint and she remembered the case but. either didn't know or wasn't saying....quite right and proper, of. course....but infuriating
there was talk going round the area at the time that the police knew who it was but couldn't prove it....but. I guess that happens in 99 per. cent of unsolved murders.
2 or. 3 years ago, I met someone whose father was working for nottm police at. the. time....I dropped a hint and she remembered the case but. either didn't know or wasn't saying....quite right and proper, of. course....but infuriating