UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

[Marantz4250b]

I’m also not in the group of ‘she couldn’t have done this’, never judge a book by its cover works both ways, just because someone looks lovely, sweet, kind, caring. A monster can be lurking beneath the surface, they are just luckier in that they don’t ‘look’ like someone capable of murder. If she looked differently would people think she was capable of this? Appearances mean nothing, and people who are as callous as to commit these acts in their place of work against tiny defenceless babies don’t ‘look’ a certain way. I’m sure everyone thinks she’s lovely because that’s the image she portrays. Sometimes those who seem overly ‘nice’ are the ones with something to hide. I believe she is very clever and has everyone who knows her fooled. MOO

Yet, in saying that, and no offence intended, you are doing precisely what you spent several sentences calling other people out on! Indeed, you have even less evidence to arrive at that conclusion than other people do who are basing their opinion on her photos, her employment and training history and what people who actually know her have said about her.

Edit: No one is saying that she "couldn't have done it". She could, anyone could. They are saying that it appears to be extremely unlikely.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Some of the nastiest people I know are the ones who everyone thinks is lovely. I went to school with them and know their nasty side, no one would believe me if I said what these people had done to me back then. Because they are friends with everyone, constantly post ‘inspiring’ quotes on SM and everyone comments how pretty they are on their photos.

People only show what they want you to see. JMO

If one of the people who harassed you were in the same situation as LL would you be on discussion boards like this letting everyone know what they were like? I suspect you might be - I certainly would be. I see not one single person anywhere posting anything negative about her. None.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Yet, in saying that, and no offence intended, you are doing precisely what you spent several sentences calling other people out on! Indeed, you have even less evidence to arrive at that conclusion than other people do who are basing their opinion on her photos, her employment and training history and what people who actually know her have said about her.

I’m just pointing out that people aren’t always as they seem and added my opinion. Which, if she is guilty then she must be very clever to have got away with this for as long as she did, plus everyone who knows her says she’s a lovely person, so yes she would have to be very clever to fool everyone around her. But there’s been many times in the past where someone who ‘couldn’t have done this’ definitely did it.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

If one of the people who harassed you were in the same situation as LL would you be on discussion boards like this letting everyone know what they were like? I suspect you might be - I certainly would be. I see not one single person anywhere posting anything negative about her. None.

I wouldn’t be no, because I’d be putting her at risk of not having a fair trial. By law she is innocent until proven guilty. In the UK we are very strict on reporting laws, if you search her name anywhere absolutely nothing comes up. She has to go into the court presumed innocent in order to have a fair trial. But that doesn’t mean that she didn’t do it, there must be evidence in order to hold her there.

 

[elliefant]

Potential trial date of January 2022!!!!!!!

At least your house is safe for a while

 

[Whitehall 1212]

What are your thoughts on this? Surely if she were intending to plead guilty then she would have given an indication as to that and they would have taken a plea today? She has after all, said that she wants a "resolution" as soon as possible.

Personally, I would expect a "not guilty" plea all day long. Either she in innocent and will plead as such, or with the nature of such offences, she will have a personality where acceptance, honesty and admission are beyond her.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I’m just pointing out that people aren’t always as they seem and added my opinion. Which, if she is guilty then she must be very clever to have got away with this for as long as she did, plus everyone who knows her says she’s a lovely person, so yes she would have to be very clever to fool everyone around her. But there’s been many times in the past where someone who ‘couldn’t have done this’ definitely did it.

Absolutely, I agree entirely. However, when you look at the people who "couldn't have done it" but actually did it almost always turns out that they had very bad things hidden in their past and that they weren't in fact the person they appeared to be. LL was arrested more than two and a half years ago - since then not one person has posted anything negative about her anywhere I can find. If this were Beverly Alliit being tried today and arrested that long ago I'm sure her previous behaviour would be all over the internet by now.

 

[Marantz4250b]

At least your house is safe for a while

Yes!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Personally, I would expect a "not guilty" plea all day long. Either she in innocent and will plead as such, or with the nature of such offences, she will have a personality where acceptance, honesty and admission are beyond her.

I agree. I think that if she was minded to plead guilty she would have pushed to be able to do so today.

So, she's genuinely innocent or she's a total psychopath. Until I have some evidence to the contrary I'm going with the former.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Trial date set for Chester nurse accused of murdering babies at Countess

Her Barrister is preparing a bail application, apparently.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I agree. I think that if she was minded to plead guilty she would have pushed to be able to do so today.

So, she's genuinely innocent or she's a total psychopath. Until I have some evidence to the contrary I'm going with the former.

Absolutely right. I certainly hope that if she is guilty there is some smoking gun evidence, such as relevant items found at her home address, car, work locker etc.

If the prosecution case is based purely on expert witness testimony on the medical aspects, possible rebuttal and circumstantial evidence regarding duty times, roles and responsibilities then it may not sit comfortably at all.

 

[Sarahlou]

I wonder what her chances of getting bail are? I don't think it would be a good idea for a few reasons.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I wonder what her chances of getting bail are? I don't think it would be a good idea for a few reasons.

I'm with you on that. The feeling seems to be that one of the original reasons for denying it was her risk of self-harm. I doubt that that risk will have subsided at all. That being the case, I cannot envisage that they are would release her to a residential address or similar.

That leaves room only for some sort of secure address which, I'd imagine, would be some secure hospital or something. That though could appear prejudicial to her as it may be seen as making her look guilty due to mental disorder.

Bail will be a tough one.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Trial date set for Chester nurse accused of murdering babies at Countess

Her Barrister is preparing a bail application, apparently.

It's a difficult one. I believe she was originally remanded in custody for her own protection. Her home address is in Hereford, which is about 100 miles from Chester. I suspect there would be little chance of her absconding, interfering with witnesses or committing offences whilst on bail.

With such emotive cases the potential risk must be to LL, by slightly unhinged individuals and possibly her own risk to herself, which could defeat the wheels of justice.

However, without any real basis for such concerns then she should be bailed to a suitable address, with other conditions, as considered necessary.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Absolutely right. I certainly hope that if she is guilty there is some smoking gun evidence, such as relevant items found at her home address, car, work locker etc. If the prosecution case is based purely on expert witness testimony on the medical aspects, possible rebuttal and circumstantial evidence regarding duty times, roles and responsibilities then it may not sit comfortably at all.

I agree unreservedly. Medical death convictions based on such evidence types do not have an auspicious history!

 

[JosieJo]

I can't see how anyone can have any opinion on whether she might have done this or not without seeing the evidence.
It has to be taken into consideration that the CPS have passed these charges..not one but many.
Now I'm not saying that everyone passed by CPS is guilty...but with so many individual charges and such a high profile emotive case its very unlikely imo that we will not hear enough evidence to prove guilt here

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I can't see how anyone can have any opinion on whether she might have done this or not without seeing the evidence.
It has to be taken into consideration that the CPS have passed these charges..not one but many.
Now I'm not saying that everyone passed by CPS is guilty...but with so many individual charges and such a high profile emotive case its very unlikely imo that we will not hear enough evidence to prove guilt here

It should be remembered that there is a recent case, in the UK, of an innocent nurse being arrested, investigated, charged and held on remand for offences of murder and administering poisons in 2011.

Nurse wrongly accused of Stepping Hill murders: 'I was chewed up and spat out'

Additionally, there are current concerns regarding the conviction of Colin Norris for murdering four elderly patients in Leeds in 2001-2. He was convicted in 2008. The case is currently being re-examined by the Criminal Cases Review Commission.

Colin Norris - Wikipedia.

With such cases, particularly where the perceived jewel in the crown of the UK is directly concerned, there must be a degree of pressure, to find answers and for someone to be held accountable.

The NHS has not showered itself in glory in recent years with various patient scandals and is still found wanting when it comes to openess, reporting of risk, bullying and taking responsibility.

This case is far from straightforward. That the CPS have approved charges in such a case should not be seen as an indication that the evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

DBM

 

[JosieJo]

It should be remembered that there is a recent case, in the UK, of an innocent nurse being arrested, investigated, charged and held on remand for offences of murder and administering poisons in 2011.

Nurse wrongly accused of Stepping Hill murders: 'I was chewed up and spat out'

Additionally, there are current concerns regarding the conviction of Colin Norris for murdering four elderly patients in Leeds in 2001-2. He was convicted in 2008. The case is currently being re-examined by the Criminal Cases Review Commission.

Colin Norris - Wikipedia.

With such cases, particularly where the perceived jewel in the crown of the UK is directly concerned, there must be a degree of pressure, to find answers and for someone to be held accountable.

The NHS has not showered itself in glory in recent years with various patient scandals and is still found wanting when it comes to openess, reporting of risk, bullying and taking responsibility.

This case is far from straightforward. That the CPS have approved charges in such a case should not be seen as an indication that the evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable.

I agree it will be complex and as aleady stated a charge by no means means guilt ... I just cannot see this happening in this case but of course jmo

 

[Marantz4250b]

I agree it will be complex and as aleady stated a charge by no means means guilt ... I just cannot see this happening in this case but of course jmo

In all honesty, if there is any case which has a higher than normal chance of failing to prove guilt it's this one. Going from previous cases of a similar nature (as mentioned by Whitehall1212 above) there is a provable track record of such things failing, often after the accused has spent considerable time in jail or has even been convicted. They very often seem to rely heavily, and often entirely, on circumstantial evidence and usually evidence which is of a highly technical nature. Moreover, this evidence is often "opinion" based where two experts may not agree on it's meaning.

The fact that this trial has been slated for some considerable time in the future (it will be fourteen months to the day after she was charged by my reckoning), ostensibly for the prosecution and defence to examine the evidence in detail, strongly suggests that it is highly unlikely that there is any "direct" evidence and that it is all circumstantial in nature. It's probably inevitable that a lot of this will be expert witness based which generally means that it's an opinion rather than absolute "fact".