GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #1

[Cherwell]

He would very likely have got away with it.

I`m not so sure - I am sure there was enough evidence for great suspicion to fall on IS. Also - the hair that was analysed - that must have been found before the body i.e. during a house search - from a hairbrush or clothing?

Suspicion, oh yes. Didn't they arrest him before Helen was found? I'm not sure there would have been enough to convict him though.

 

[michelle230]

I thought the hair analysis was from when they did post mortem on the body?

I think police definitely suspected him from early on but without the extra info from the neighbour about the other cess pitt , they wouldn't have found Helen. They'd already called in an expert to empty the cess pitt that they knew about but neither they nor the expertrt realised there was a 2nd cess pitt.

ETA It does read as if it was all from the post mortem report

But you don`t always need to find the body to convict.
Also I just assumed (maybe wrongly) that the hair was taken from somewhere in the house. Surely such detailed forensic analysis wouldn`t have been possible after the hair has been polluted so badly and for so long?

 

[jessie]

There is a possibility that grief played a role, also on his part.

The idea was this: When your spouse (partner, sibling etc) dies all of a sudden, in your presence and there is nothing you can do to help, you may be overwhelmed with feelings of helplessness. Unbearable feelings.

RSBM



Thank you for you thoughts ZaZara I will think on them. I have snipped and left the part which is relevant to my own experience.
I have never read Helen books or blog because my own feelings, even after several years, are too overwhelming still.

 

[Rayemonde]

I feel he would have to keep on giving her the drugs. I think I read that the drug is cumulative, so, over time, the build up in Helen's system would mean he did not have to worry about regular doses, just a now and then top up.
This would keep her below par and although she would be functioning, she would be generally tired, unable to concentrate and probably would even welcome IS * helping out *.

I hope, however, that he would have been caught out, because from everything I have read, Helen had good friends and family and they would eventually have wanted to know what had happened to the Helen they knew.

People build up a tolerance to zopiclone, so if you keep taking it you will need higher and higher doses to have the same effect. So it would be counterproductive to keep drugging her every day.

 

[jessie]

People build up a tolerance to zopiclone, so if you keep taking it you will need higher and higher doses to have the same effect. So it would be counterproductive to keep drugging her every day.

I am going to admit to something really stupid I did. I've been taking zopiclone 3.5 mg for 10 years. Often cut those in half so maybe they are surplus to requirements, IDK.

Anyhow, they are identical to my blood pressure pills - and one morning I got them mixed up. I slept most of the day. When awake was very drowsy, wobbly on my feet and truly was unable to function.

With a 7.5 mg pill during the day Helen must have been in a terrible state imo.

 

[Rayemonde]

People build up a tolerance to zopiclone, so if you keep taking it you will need higher and higher doses to have the same effect. So it would be counterproductive to keep drugging her every day.

Sorry, just looked this up and people don't build up tolerance if they use zopiclone for a maximum of 4 weeks. They also don't become dependent if they use it for up to 4 weeks, so if the one pack of zopiclone is all IS had, Helen shouldn't have had withdrawal symptoms if IS suddenly stopped giving it to her.

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emcmobile/medicine/26364

 

[BatFace]

The psychological theory of him wanting to re-experience his first wife's death but with him in full control is very interesting, but we can't know, unfortunately.

I tend to feel that people don't suddenly become poisoners and murderers in middle age without any sort of precedent for sociopathy. Bearing this in mind, I find my ears pricking up at the mention of "epileptic seizures" being a possible side effect of Zoplicone withdrawal...


How thorough would a post-mortem be in the event of a non-suspicious death? Can we REALLY be sure that didn't do something similar to his first wife?

 

[Bethan]

You think he might have killed her by accident with too many pills?

I'm behind on my reading, however I must just pick up on this point.

It is virtually impossible to die from an overdose of zopiclone alone.

This is why zopiclone is one of the very few sleeping pills which can be prescribed in UK now.

I know this for a fact.
I am medically qualified &
have researched this carefully in the past for a 'real life' case.

Searching the literature I found just ONE death which COULD have been attributable to an overdose of zopiclone & this was in a frail elderly lady who had pre-existing breathing problems.

There is however a significantly increased risk of RTA's in zopiclone users.

Reference [12] Barbone F, McMahon AD, Davey PG, et al. (October 1998). "Association of road-traffic accidents with benzodiazepine use". Lancet. 352 (9137): 1331–1336. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(98)04087-2. PMID 9802269.


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[Joely 123]

Do you think the reason why IS kept harping on the fact of Helen being a nervous driver (even if she was) and according to him, her telling him she never wanted to drive again, was to plant a seed in peoples minds as to the reason why she did not take her car when she 'disappeared'?

I think he definitely had a motive here - especially as he also says that on the morning of the 11th April - she came home upset and said she didn't wish to drive again. It does't appear that she was out of the house in the car that morning - but in any case, no wonder if she became at all anxious driving when she was under the influence of drugs.

 

[Bethan]

Sorry, just looked this up and people don't build up tolerance if they use zopiclone for a maximum of 4 weeks. They also don't become dependent if they use it for up to 4 weeks, so if the one pack of zopiclone is all IS had, Helen shouldn't have had withdrawal symptoms if IS suddenly stopped giving it to her.

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emcmobile/medicine/26364

I suspect Helen was given zopiclone for longer than one month.

It can be bought online from abroad. You only have to verify that you have been prescribed the drug previously by your GP for insomnia.

If Helen was given the drug in daytime & then drove, there would be a significantly high risk of a car accident,

If she was given the drug periodically, then she could have experienced unpleasant withdrawal symptoms, which include anxiety, agitation, confusion & irritability, among others.

( Incidentally, Convulsions are a very RARE withdrawal symptom when stopping a THERAPEUTIC dose of zopiclone ).


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[Joely 123]

Further to Alyce's post re http://www.lifeafterlondon.com/leavi...ite-the-dream/ - it is worth reading the full article - but I wish to refer to Helen's quote 'I'm not unhappy here - there is no beating of Rigby & Peller-clad chest and Sloshing of Merlot in misery every night - (well not EVERY night)
We have grown to know Helen's slant on humour and her brilliant way of expressing truth within it.
I feel that Helen did love to have wine and Champagne (referenced in her book) beyond the 'sherry before lunch' which she did to join with her Father.
And I do wonder if IS - knowing this - would have expected more complications of the Zopiclone.

 

[BatFace]

I suppose there's always the possibility that Helen DID say she never wanted to drive again, if she was getting scared feeling woozy behind the wheel. Perhaps IS saw the shrinking likelihood of her meeting an untimely end on the roads, and it gave him the impetus to take a more direct route to achieving his aims.

All conjecture, of course. I doubt we will ever know, because I don't think he will give an honest account of what happened.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I'm behind on my reading, however I must just pick up on this point.

It is virtually impossible to die from an overdose of zopiclone alone.

This is why zopiclone is one of the very few sleeping pills which can be prescribed in UK now.

I know this for a fact.
I am medically qualified &
have researched this carefully in the past for a 'real life' case.

Searching the literature I found just ONE death which COULD have been attributable to an overdose of zopiclone & this was in a frail elderly lady who had pre-existing breathing problems.

There is however a significantly increased risk of RTA's in zopiclone users.

Reference [12] Barbone F, McMahon AD, Davey PG, et al. (October 1998). "Association of road-traffic accidents with benzodiazepine use". Lancet. 352 (9137): 1331–1336. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(98)04087-2. PMID 9802269.


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Can you tell us anything with respect to Zopiclone in conjunction with alcohol. Are there added risks and how serious are they?

 

[mrjitty]

As he stood to gain nothing financially by marrying Helen and as the wording of the 2015 POA talks of what would happen if Helen were unfit to manage her own finances Ido wonder if he intended to drug her enough to make her unfit to manage her finances so that he could invoke the POA and have access to all her finances. The only downside being her brother also had POA (maybe he was his next target).

But I equally think it could be one of at least two other scenarios...

1: That he planned all along to conceal her body in the cess pit, pretend she was missing, invoke POA and live off her money (and the standing order) until she could officially be declared dead and that the drugs were just a way to make her compliant or unconscious enough to get her into the cess pit.

2: That something happened that day that made him lose control and suffocate Helen. Maybe like she'd hinted at before, she told him she wanted them to move to London and leave the boys in a flat in Royston. Maybe she was drugged but came round to find him transfering money from her account or forging her signature on legal documents. Maybe she just mentioned the upcoming wedding and he realised there was no way he could get out of the wedding plans and snapped.

One scenario I do rule out is the ridiculous Joe and Nick fairytale and if they go down the line of insisting he couldn't have moved Helen or the cesspit cover himself then I will assume another occupant of the house helped him with that

Something to keep in mind is sociopaths are frequently not goal oriented

That is why their behaviour can be so hard to figure out should you have to deal with one

 

[mrjitty]

If it was an accident why would he go to all the bother of hiding Helen and Boris and creating a whole back story for months when he could have simply reported her death and explained away the zopiclone by saying she had been taking them herself?


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Because she was suffocated or similar.

The act of hiding the corpse proves the need to conceal cause of death.

I don't mean to imply she was murdered accidentally (a phrasing which makes no sense anway)

She was murdered - but IMO he did not plan it - it was something he ended up doing in the heat of the moment.

 

[mrjitty]

She didn't like take medication, IS has shot himself in the foot already by saying that.

His best defence in that situation would have been a "found her suddenly dead" scenario where he could say "she occasionally takes my sleeping tablets if she can't sleep".

The fact he didn't do that speaks volumes.


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b

Exactly

Cause of death involved external intervention

E.g smothering

 

[Joely 123]

I believe the Pathologists suggested traces of Zopiclone (from Helen's hair) dating back to December, 2015. (First day of trial).

 

[tlcya]

A fresh thread has been prepared for you. Please begin to move over to Thread #2

This one will close in a few minutes.

 

[tlcya]

This thread is now closed. Hoping you all made it to the new thread. I will copy over the last post for continuity of conversation.