GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #9

[gloriana]

Thinking outside the box for a moment.
Has anyone else thought that rather than NUA being the perp that perhaps it could be GF? There could possibly have been a rapour between Jo and NUA which GF was aware of. And you know what they say about a woman scorned. She is fit and strong...and perhaps managed to take Jo by surprise. Although of course there is the dna to think about and not sure how that would tie in, but then we don't know exactly what these samples acually are or when they made contact with Jo's body as yet.
If neither have a car (from reading posts) not sure how body would have been moved. Borrowing is a possibility. If so, whoever lent car must be giving this some thought now.
I can't see them having lived in such close proximity and not having exchanged greetings, small-talk etc., especially as being much same age-group, sharing similar interests, they would have a fair bit in common.

One small thing re CJ. I understand he was locking his car when he thought he saw 2 or 3 people at communal front door evening of 17th Dec. If he were locking car surely he would have then walked towards house and seen 'these people' more clearly or even spoke to them.

 

[aneurin]

Not true. They had his car on video in the area. He could not account for his whereabouts, had no alibi's for certain times, was id'd as a punter. Conviction cannot be on DNA alone.

The contention was that out of the three; witnesses, confessions and forensics, you needed 2 out of 3 to convict. I was merely pointing out that in the case of Steve Wright they had neither a confession nor any witnesses. Yes the prosecution had additional circumstantial evidence in addition to the forensic evidence (which wasn't just DNA, they had fibre evidence as well) such as the lack of any clear alibi and the fact that a car identical to that driven to Wright had been captured on CCTV cruising the so-called red light district. To which you could add the fact that he had been stopped by the police on the 1st December 2006 and warned to stay out of the red light district and that one of his neighbours recalled hearing banging noises coming from his flat. But it was the forensic evidence that put Wright into the position of claiming that yes, he had indeed met all five of the victims shortly before their deaths (and had sex with four of them, but not Tania because of her acne), and that it was merely an unfortunate coincidence that all five were abducted and killed shortly afterwards. The jury didn't buy that.

You could also add the case of the rather brutal rape and murder of Sally Anne Bowman. There were no witnesses nor a confession in that case either, but DNA, fingerprints and bite mark comparisons put a certain Mark Dixie in the frame. The forensic evidence was such that Dixie was left in the position where his defence consisted of claiming that he had simply
stumbled across the half-naked corpse and then taken advantage of the situation (so to speak). He was convicted too.

Now the relevance to the Joanna Yeates case would be that, since there are no witnesses in this case (so far at least, apart from the rather garbled reports of what CJ might or might not have seen), then the result would be that unless someone confesses, there will never be a conviction. I don't buy that argument. If there is enough forensic evidence to put Mr A together with Miss B, and the prosecution can put the evidence in context and tell a credible story so that Mr A is obliged to concoct some half-assed explanation of events, then you can still get a conviction.

To which I would add that I didn't say that you could convict on DNA alone, I was simply pointing out that if you had forensic evidence you could get a conviction in the absence of any witness evidence or a confession. There are other kinds of evidence available other than witnesses or confessions.

 

[Luna15]

Presumably to get to her work at Malmesbury TM has a car?
Perhaps NUA borrowed her vehicle? (Hence the appeal)
It would be interesting to know whether he cycles to work (perhaps via train from Bristol to Bath).

The resident of the flat at 37 Aberdeen Road could have a car, she is in Chile, perhaps NUA asked to borrow it as she wasn't using it?

I think she could be the weeping female (EW)

 

[Phillb]

One small thing re CJ. I understand he was locking his car when he thought he saw 2 or 3 people at communal front door evening of 17th Dec. If he were locking car surely he would have then walked towards house and seen 'these people' more clearly or even spoke to them.

The thing with C.J's comment as I see it anyway.
We all have senses, we get the feeling someones behind us, or we have a feeling someone might have been in a garden as we pass. There's no obvious sign of them, but it's our animal instincts we still have for survival.

Like Weller when he penned the lyrics for 'Down in the Tubestation at Midnight'
Behind me..Whispers in the shadows - gruff blazing voices, Hating, waiting

I really do believe this is what happened to C.J. He got the feeling there might have been some people about. But as he says he wasn't really taking much notice at the time, it was freezing cold, and dark outside. If it wasn't for the fact of the murder, it would never have been mentioned again. He probably told the neighbour you know i'm not sure, but there could have been someone around the flat.
I'm not really sure, I didn't see anything definite.

Then when he realised the implications of not mentioning this to the Police, he tried to stop the neighbours stating as fact when the press got hold of it. I'm sure with hindsight he would have kept his mouth shut, and i'm also sure he would have told the Police if had definitely seen something relevant.

Just my take on it, but C.J was pretty miffed how his comment had seriously been distorted :furious:

 

[little_miss_smart]

The resident of the flat at 37 Aberdeen Road could have a car, she is in Chile, perhaps NUA asked to borrow it as she wasn't using it?

I think she could be the weeping female (EW)

It could be EW but I definitely think it's TM. Most of the articles in the press hint at that and EW was out of the loop so to speak. Whoever the weeping girl is, her conscious was pricked by the fresh appeal made by Joannas parents. I doubt EW was aware of the appeal but I could be wrong.

 

[aneurin]

It's quite possible.
Clifton has two railway station within half a mile distance. That was something I noticed while looking at Google Earth. Clifton Down, and Redland railway station are very close to both Canynge Road, and Aberdeen Road.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...3687,-2.610798&spn=0.012326,0.029054&t=h&z=15

I'm not sure if I could work them into any murder alibi times, or lies at the time.

Clifton Down and Redland are both on the Severn Beach line which runs from Bristol Temple Meads to, well Severn Beach. You could catch a train from Clifton Down to Temple Meads and then catch a train to Bath, but it would be a lot easier and quicker just to bike it to Temple Meads in the first place.

 

[sewandsew]

Hi everybody - I've been reading this forum with interest for the last week or so and I've been very impressed with how civilised it is compared to at least one other I frequent!

Anyway I've now registered and here's my thoughts for what they're worth. I believe that assuming the DUA actually did go away between 20 Dec and a couple of days ago, this is the reason the LE have appeared to do not very much during that time, as they were suspicious of him from early on but had no evidence, so they were forced to wait until he returned - as without anything other than suspicions, any warrant to extradite him would most likely have failed. They wasted no time once he had come back to the UK to arrest him, which they may have had to do in order to get a DNA sample which would otherwise have been refused - the results of which would take a couple of days to come back - maybe not until last night or this morning presumably?

However my own suspicions are still about GR. I still can't get out of my mind speculating about the missing 4 hours after he returned home on the Sunday night. What was he up to during that time? All the signs should have alerted him immediately - the cat, bag, keys, phone, half-drunk cider and possibly the missing bag/case. If her parents noticed something badly wrong straightaway then why didn't he? If he really is innocent then he should at the very least be ashamed that he didn't take quicker action than he did - IMO of course.

No, my theory - as I say for what it's worth, which could be absolutely nothing! Maybe he left for Sheffield around 7 as he stated, but for some genuine reason he went back - maybe he'd forgotten something, or the car started playing up and the weather worsened.....whatever, it's not important. But all this hassle would surely have caused a great deal of stress and irritation. Maybe he got home just as Jo got in, helped her settle in, and as she took off her boots he poured her a drink and unpacked the pizza ready to get it in the oven before he set off back out - all the time Jo cheerfully chatting about her evening so far, including mentioning that she'd texted MW - and just maybe he flipped, this being the last straw in a stressful day - he'd struggled to get the car going in the first place, he'd had a frustrating start to his journey, which he'd had to make on his own anyway.....and here she was without a care in the world, trying to arrange a cosy evening with another guy.......well maybe he just flipped, and seconds later there she was, unconscious. Well the rest is just more speculation on my part and I've probably waffled on enough for now!

 

[SheDevil]

Is it true there is a car park around the back of 44 Canynge Road?

Also, one thing I am struggling to understand is that, if NUA supposedly left for Holland on the 19th/20th December, and Joanna wasn't even a missing person until the early hours of the 20th, how can they have spoken to NUA and ruled him out as a suspect??:waitasec:

 

[SheDevil]

Oh - and while I think NUA is a more plausible suspect than CJ, I still have my doubts over GR which refuse to go away...

 

[little_miss_smart]

If he isn't released tonight what do we make of it then?

The police obviously haven't got enough to charge him but obviously feel they need to keep him longer, and it's not only down to the police is it? The magistrate or judge must also feel there is enough reason to extend the warrant, if that is to be the case.

 

[Marc D.]

The resident of the flat at 37 Aberdeen Road could have a car, she is in Chile, perhaps NUA asked to borrow it as she wasn't using it?

I think she could be the weeping female (EW)

Whether EW was the weeping female or not, NUA could have borrowed her car the same, without her knowing. If he had access to her flat, he probably also had access to the car's keys.

Using a stolen car is also a possibility, even if chances are very low. I do not see NUA stealing a car, but why not? After dropping the body, the car would be burnt 100 miles away and he would come back by train, paying with bank notes to avoid tracking, all this without a mobile in his pocket, ideally.

At any rate, the guy is smart, and if he did it, he may have very well covered his back.

 

[sewandsew]

Is it true there is a car park around the back of 44 Canynge Road?

Also, one thing I am struggling to understand is that, if NUA supposedly left for Holland on the 19th/20th December, and Joanna wasn't even a missing person until the early hours of the 20th, how can they have spoken to NUA and ruled him out as a suspect??:waitasec:

Assuming they did manage to grab a few words with him before he went away, nobody even knew she was "properly" missing yet, and certainly not dead - just not in the flat where she was expected to be. Maybe not enough to justify stopping him (or anybody) going away, or suspecting him (or anybody) of murder at that point?

 

[Estelle]

Could CJ have lied about this sighting?

 

[Phillb]

If he isn't released tonight what do we make of it then?

My thoughts are he will be released tonight on the same bail terms as C.J.
I think we can make of it there will be pretty serious trouble down at A&S headquarters if so. :furious:

 

[Phillb]

Could CJ have lied about this sighting?

I think his sighting comment was blown out of all proportion. I don't think he saw anything at all.

 

[Luna15]

Hi everybody - I've been reading this forum with interest for the last week or so and I've been very impressed with how civilised it is compared to at least one other I frequent!

Anyway I've now registered and here's my thoughts for what they're worth. I believe that assuming the DUA actually did go away between 20 Dec and a couple of days ago, this is the reason the LE have appeared to do not very much during that time, as they were suspicious of him from early on but had no evidence, so they were forced to wait until he returned - as without anything other than suspicions, any warrant to extradite him would most likely have failed. They wasted no time once he had come back to the UK to arrest him, which they may have had to do in order to get a DNA sample which would otherwise have been refused - the results of which would take a couple of days to come back - maybe not until last night or this morning presumably?

However my own suspicions are still about GR. I still can't get out of my mind speculating about the missing 4 hours after he returned home on the Sunday night. What was he up to during that time? All the signs should have alerted him immediately - the cat, bag, keys, phone, half-drunk cider and possibly the missing bag/case. If her parents noticed something badly wrong straightaway then why didn't he? If he really is innocent then he should at the very least be ashamed that he didn't take quicker action than he did - IMO of course.

No, my theory - as I say for what it's worth, which could be absolutely nothing! Maybe he left for Sheffield around 7 as he stated, but for some genuine reason he went back - maybe he'd forgotten something, or the car started playing up and the weather worsened.....whatever, it's not important. But all this hassle would surely have caused a great deal of stress and irritation. Maybe he got home just as Jo got in, helped her settle in, and as she took off her boots he poured her a drink and unpacked the pizza ready to get it in the oven before he set off back out - all the time Jo cheerfully chatting about her evening so far, including mentioning that she'd texted MW - and just maybe he flipped, this being the last straw in a stressful day - he'd struggled to get the car going in the first place, he'd had a frustrating start to his journey, which he'd had to make on his own anyway.....and here she was without a care in the world, trying to arrange a cosy evening with another guy.......well maybe he just flipped, and seconds later there she was, unconscious. Well the rest is just more speculation on my part and I've probably waffled on enough for now!

I'm with you on your theory, and I dont know why I just cant entirely defer from GR, perhaps I'm just stubborn :blushing: I dont think he would have poured her a drink though (forensics could have shown that/if she had been discovered before his return/how would he account for that)

The only thing now that makes me think he must have been ruled out, is the DCI thanking him for his "unfailing support" - that would go down in history if GR did turn out to be the perp.

 

[gloriana]

The thing with C.J's comment as I see it anyway.
We all have senses, we get the feeling someones behind us, or we have a feeling someone might have been in a garden as we pass. There's no obvious sign of them, but it's our animal instincts we still have for survival.

Like Weller when he penned the lyrics for 'Down in the Tubestation at Midnight'
Behind me..Whispers in the shadows - gruff blazing voices, Hating, waiting

I really do believe this is what happened to C.J. He got the feeling there might have been some people about. But as he says he wasn't really taking much notice at the time, it was freezing cold, and dark outside. If it wasn't for the fact of the murder, it would never have been mentioned again. He probably told the neighbour you know i'm not sure, but there could have been someone around the flat.
I'm not really sure, I didn't see anything definite.

Yes thanks Phillb, I can understand that, been in same position many a time. But what I am trying to get to is that I'm sure that at that particular time, it was stated that CJ was 'locking' his car. Surely then he would have walked towards the house? Towards the 'people' at communal door.

 

[sewandsew]

I'm with you on your theory, and I dont know why I just cant entirely defer from GR, perhaps I'm just stubborn :blushing: I dont think he would have poured her a drink though (forensics could have shown that/if she had been discovered before his return/how would he account for that)

The only thing now that makes me think he must have been ruled out, is the DCI thanking him for his "unfailing support" - that would go down in history if GR did turn out to be the perp.

I'm stubborn too - and I agree with your last point!

As for the drink - he could just say he handled it during the four hours......presumably that could explain away the forensics?

 

[happyanne]

I don't necessarily think the missing 4 hours with GR are that relevant. They may have had words before he left and he might have thought she was having a party weekend to "punish" him. He may have spoken to CJ who probably mentioned seeing her leaving with another couple on the Friday evening. He presumably has a cast iron alibi unless his brother and sister-in-law are lying.
I do think there are 2 people involved, i just don't think it's possible for a single person to have tidied up the clues so well.
I still think she wasn't killed in her own flat and things were put there to create the impression she must have been.

 

[mangy9]

Whether EW was the weeping female or not, NUA could have borrowed her car the same, without her knowing. If he had access to her flat, he probably also had access to the car's keys.

Using a stolen car is also a possibility, even if chances are very low. I do not see NUA stealing a car, but why not? After dropping the body, the car would be burnt 100 miles away and he would come back by train, paying with bank notes to avoid tracking, all this without a mobile in his pocket, ideally.

At any rate, the guy is smart, and if he did it, he may have very well covered his back.

I've posted this before , but on google streetview there is a light blue car on ew's drive. Is this her car?
It could easily be construed as a light coloured 4 x 4 at night - as per LE's statement of a vehicle seen in Longwood Lane on the 17th.