Found Deceased UK - Leah Croucher, 19, Emerson Valley, Milton Keynes, 14 Feb 2019 #4

[HollyHunter9]

I hesitate to add this post, as it may only add to the confusion. And this case has plenty of options, many of which could be swept away if we had a bit more guidance from LE.

DCI Kentish mentioned initially the sightings of someone like Leah was at the Teardrop lakes, and they searched them. The first part is a flow directly from Furzton Lake and I saw them searching this section. Large object cannot flow into the smaller lakes due to grills, but of course a person could fall or be pushed into them. So they were all searched including Culverts under the road.
But given the wide range of times when witnesses said they saw a person who looked like Leah on a phone, it made me wonder if Leah received a call on her way to work around the Lake and wished to delay her normal route, so she continued using the Red Route by the side of the hotel, which goes under Watling street and ends up at the Tear drop lakes. This area has one small public car park but there are lots of large offices with people using the paths to go to those offices. But if Leah then decided to delay going to work and walked back to Furzton Lake it would explain the huge time differences with the sightings. Clearly the time she switched off her phone does not fit in with this unless she only turned off the location part at that time, or as seems unlikely she had another phone. Also given how conscientious her mother said she was, she would probably have phoned in and said she would be delayed arriving at work, and there is no report of such a call. Only added this in as the initial reports mentioned Teardrop lakes not Furzton Lake. I have not stumbled across any retraction or correction of this early reporting.
As a newby to this forum, I am so impressed with the huge and respectful time and energy Ws members put into trying to help.

Great post again, very thorough. I too noticed about the tear drop lakes at the start of the investigation rather than furzton lake but I have not seen much info regarding this. In your opinion as a local are the lakes very deep? Is there any chance Leah could still be in there tangled up somewhere?

Another thing I thought with regards to the phone switching off at 8.34am ~ I wonder if the phone was switched on but submerged in water would it turn off instantly? Or would it take a little while to power down once the water got fully inside it? Im just wondering if the phone went into water rather than being physically/manually turned off it might affect the timeline of time something happened to leah?

This timeline below explains that the night before location was turned off but the morning of disappearance the phone was actually switched off.

Thursday February 14
8am: Leah, 19, sets off for work as normal to her admin job with finance company in Milton Keynes.
5.45pm: Leah walks home from work. The location settings on her Samsung phone were switched off in the Furzton Lake area.
6pm: Leah arrives home from work. She changes into tracksuit bottoms and a long-sleeved top. She tells her mum she is going to visit a friend.
7.15pm: Leah arrives home again. Her behaviour that night was totally normal, say her parents.
Friday February 15
8am: Leah gets up and leaves for work. . She sets off on her normal route, wearing a black coat, skinny black jeans, black Converse high top shoes and carrying a small black rucksack. Underneath her coat she wears a distinctive grey hoodie.
8.13am: CCTV footage shows her walking along Buzzacott Lane in Furzton. That was the last confirmed sighting of Leah.
8.34am: Leah's mobile phone is switched off.
9am: Leah fails to arrive at work.
9.30am - 11.15am: Three different witnesses report seeing a girl matching Leah's description walking by Furzton Lake. She was looking 'visibly upset' and crying while talking on the phone. Police have never been able to say definitely that this was Leah.
6pm: Leah fails to return home. She is reported missing.
Source:
Timeline of missing Leah Croucher's disappearance | Daily Mail Online

 

[WiseOwl]

Both @LINEOFDUTY and @HollyHunter9's posts had me thinking about the days immediately after Leah went missing. I have looked at as many reports as I could from MSM during those early days and picked some things out.

The first two are from BBC News 22 February 2019 (One week after Leah went missing).

First: Police said they had two unconfirmed sightings of a girl who "may be Leah". Ch Insp Neil Kentish, of Thames Valley Police, said the females were seen in the area of Teardrop Lakes at approximately 08:45 GMT on 15 February. He added that Leah had not used her mobile phone or accessed her bank account since going missing.

I don't recall this 8.45 sighting at all, the sightings of the upset girl at Furzton Lake were reported to be between 9.30 - 11.15.

Then: Thames Valley Police is appealing for people with CCTV or dash-cam footage filmed in Furzton, Emerson Valley, Shenley Lodge, Knowlhill and surrounding areas on 15 February, between 08:00 and 11:00 GMT, to get in touch.

Why the 11.00 cut-off time, did they not consider that Leah could have still been somewhere around the town later that day? It's seems a bit short-sighted of the police to just check between 8.00 - 11.00 IMO.

Then there's this from mkfm.com 25 February 2019: Chief Inspector Neil Kentish said: “It is now ten days since Leah vanished from Milton Keynes. Leah was last seen in Buzzacott Lane in Furzton, where she was captured on CCTV at about 8.15am. We have received a significant number of calls from members of the public, who have come forward with information, all of which are being prioritised and investigated. We also have a significant amount of CCTV enquiries ongoing, with thousands of hours of CCTV recovered and being reviewed."

In 10 days they had got thousands of hours of CCTV recovered? From the morning Leah went missing? Where did all this footage come from? And apart from looking for Leah did they check any vehicles on the footage that she could have potentially got in to?

 

[Scorpiette]

Quoted from Wiseowl: 'I don't recall this 8.45 sighting at all, the sightings of the upset girl at Furzton Lake were reported to be between 9.30 - 11.15.

Then: Thames Valley Police is appealing for people with CCTV or dash-cam footage filmed in Furzton, Emerson Valley, Shenley Lodge, Knowlhill and surrounding areas on 15 February, between 08:00 and 11:00 GMT, to get in touch.

Why the 11.00 cut-off time, did they not consider that Leah could have still been somewhere around the town later that day? It's seems a bit short-sighted of the police to just check between 8.00 - 11.00 IMO'.
Scorpiette: That's a very interesting point you make about the Police asking for witnesses between 8-11am. Why is 11am the cutoff time? I'm very intrigued by this.
Do the Police know something more beyond 11am but can't say, for whatever reason?

 

[Spiderplant]

Agree this 11am cut off seems interesting. And I think probably goes some way to supporting our thoughts that info is being withheld.

-experienced websleuths-From other cases you may have followed- do you have any suggestions of types of info that police may with hold, especially for this length of time?
I can only think of other active investigations....

I wonder if any of this timeline feeds in with Mr X Alibi just out of curiosity. Thoughts my own.
Edited for grammar (twice! It’s been a busy day!)

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

I wonder if the 11am cut off was simply due to the vol of cctv footage. If they collected 3 hours from anyone with dashcam, ring doorbell, cctv etc that is a lot of minutes. Especially if it has to be collected by someone official in case of an evidence chain. And then viewed.

 

[LINEOFDUTY]

Great post again, very thorough. I too noticed about the tear drop lakes at the start of the investigation rather than furzton lake but I have not seen much info regarding this. In your opinion as a local are the lakes very deep? Is there any chance Leah could still be in there tangled up somewhere?

Another thing I thought with regards to the phone switching off at 8.34am ~ I wonder if the phone was switched on but submerged in water would it turn off instantly? Or would it take a little while to power down once the water got fully inside it? Im just wondering if the phone went into water rather than being physically/manually turned off it might affect the timeline of time something happened to leah?

This timeline below explains that the night before location was turned off but the morning of disappearance the phone was actually switched off.

Thursday February 14
8am: Leah, 19, sets off for work as normal to her admin job with finance company in Milton Keynes.
5.45pm: Leah walks home from work. The location settings on her Samsung phone were switched off in the Furzton Lake area.
6pm: Leah arrives home from work. She changes into tracksuit bottoms and a long-sleeved top. She tells her mum she is going to visit a friend.
7.15pm: Leah arrives home again. Her behaviour that night was totally normal, say her parents.
Friday February 15
8am: Leah gets up and leaves for work. . She sets off on her normal route, wearing a black coat, skinny black jeans, black Converse high top shoes and carrying a small black rucksack. Underneath her coat she wears a distinctive grey hoodie.
8.13am: CCTV footage shows her walking along Buzzacott Lane in Furzton. That was the last confirmed sighting of Leah.
8.34am: Leah's mobile phone is switched off.
9am: Leah fails to arrive at work.
9.30am - 11.15am: Three different witnesses report seeing a girl matching Leah's description walking by Furzton Lake. She was looking 'visibly upset' and crying while talking on the phone. Police have never been able to say definitely that this was Leah.
6pm: Leah fails to return home. She is reported missing.
Source:
Timeline of missing Leah Croucher's disappearance | Daily Mail Online

Thats very valuable as a reminder of these various times. Depending on the reliability of the witnesses it would give time to walk too and from the Tear drop lakes, but again that does not move the investigation forward.
The lake is over 70 acres in size but I cannot see any information about its depth. I have spoken to Firemen who train in search and rescue and pump tests each year. They stand in various spots up to their waist so in many areas its not deep. I understand there are a few deep areas but have no real details about that. A number of years ago, a the lake was searched for a young man and said to be clear and several weeks later a walker noticed the body. I seem to recall the parents made a complaint about the matter. This was not the much more recent case of a young man who left a local night club to walk home. So there have been cases where its taken a few weeks for a body to appear. But in this case the very heavy rain since last October causes scouring as water flows through the lake and out via the outfall or the tear drop lakes so its difficult to imagine a body would not have appeared in a two year period.
As for the time line
There is one slightly later sighting reported on 15th February this year on a televised report by DCI Andy Howard which was also reported locally that another sighting was made of Leah at 8,20 on the day she went missed near TellyTubby Hill. I questioned at the time how valuable it would be to know exactly where, near TTH ,she was seen as that would give a clearer indication of her route ie down towards the Pavilion and North side or towards the East side of the Lake.
I noticed there is a UK petition to raised national awareness of Leah disappearance.
Can I ask if any local Ws members have had meetings with the investigation team?

 

[HollyHunter9]

Both @LINEOFDUTY and @HollyHunter9's posts had me thinking about the days immediately after Leah went missing. I have looked at as many reports as I could from MSM during those early days and picked some things out.

The first two are from BBC News 22 February 2019 (One week after Leah went missing).

First: Police said they had two unconfirmed sightings of a girl who "may be Leah". Ch Insp Neil Kentish, of Thames Valley Police, said the females were seen in the area of Teardrop Lakes at approximately 08:45 GMT on 15 February. He added that Leah had not used her mobile phone or accessed her bank account since going missing.

I don't recall this 8.45 sighting at all, the sightings of the upset girl at Furzton Lake were reported to be between 9.30 - 11.15.

Then: Thames Valley Police is appealing for people with CCTV or dash-cam footage filmed in Furzton, Emerson Valley, Shenley Lodge, Knowlhill and surrounding areas on 15 February, between 08:00 and 11:00 GMT, to get in touch.

Why the 11.00 cut-off time, did they not consider that Leah could have still been somewhere around the town later that day? It's seems a bit short-sighted of the police to just check between 8.00 - 11.00 IMO.

Then there's this from mkfm.com 25 February 2019: Chief Inspector Neil Kentish said: “It is now ten days since Leah vanished from Milton Keynes. Leah was last seen in Buzzacott Lane in Furzton, where she was captured on CCTV at about 8.15am. We have received a significant number of calls from members of the public, who have come forward with information, all of which are being prioritised and investigated. We also have a significant amount of CCTV enquiries ongoing, with thousands of hours of CCTV recovered and being reviewed."

In 10 days they had got thousands of hours of CCTV recovered? From the morning Leah went missing? Where did all this footage come from? And apart from looking for Leah did they check any vehicles on the footage that she could have potentially got in to?

I agree with @Scorpiette that's a really good observation about the 11am cut off point for cctv. I also wonder if cctv was checked in the days leading up to her disappearance to see if she ever met up with anyone on her way home or changed her routine slightly?

 

[HollyHunter9]

I would point out the comments made by DCI Andy Howard on a Thames appeal which was also reported locally that another sighting was made of Leah at 8,20 on the day she went missed near TellyTubby Hill. I questioned at the time it would be invaluable to know exactly where near TTH she was seen as that would give a clearer indication of her route ie down towards the Pavilion and North side or towards the East side of the Lake.

Oh yes I'll go back and edit the timeline to add that in. It has also been stated (MSM linked earlier in thread, will try find it to link again) that her phone switched off at the north end of the lake so you would assume at TTH she was heading north rather than east. This is where earlier in the thread some of us then picked up on the fact the premier Inn is also at the North side of the lake.

 

[HollyHunter9]

Thats very valuable as a reminder of these various times. Depending on the reliability of the witnesses it would give time to walk too and from the Tear drop lakes, but again that does not move the investigation forward.
The lake is over 70 acres in size but I cannot see any information about its depth. I have spoken to Firemen who train in search and rescue and pump tests each year. They stand in various spots up to their waist so in many areas its not deep. I understand there are a few deep areas but have no real details about that. A number of years ago, a the lake was searched for a young man and said to be clear and several weeks later a walker noticed the body. I seem to recall the parents made a complaint about the matter. This was not the much more recent case of a young man who left a local night club to walk home. So there have been cases where its taken a few weeks for a body to appear. But in this case the very heavy rain since last October causes scouring as water flows through the lake and out via the outfall or the tear drop lakes so its difficult to imagine a body would not have appeared in a two year period.
As for the time line
There is one slightly later sighting reported on 15th February this year on a televised report by DCI Andy Howard which was also reported locally that another sighting was made of Leah at 8,20 on the day she went missed near TellyTubby Hill. I questioned at the time how valuable it would be to know exactly where, near TTH ,she was seen as that would give a clearer indication of her route ie down towards the Pavilion and North side or towards the East side of the Lake.
I noticed there is a UK petition to raised national awareness of Leah disappearance.
Can I ask if any local Ws members have had meetings with the investigation team?

Thank you for the info regarding the lakes. I personally don't think she went into the lakes herself or she would've been found by now. But IMO it is possible her phone went into the lake.

Something else I found interesting regarding the morning timeline was that the police said she DID change her route on the day of disappearance.

Why would she do this? Would this be because:

A. Her mum advised her to vary her route? (as previously mentioned in MSM)
B. She had arranged to meet someone?
C. She decided to leave/disappear herself?
D. She decided to commit suicide?
E. Was she being followed and changed her route?

“As we know, Leah walked to work in Knowlhill most mornings. On Friday 15 February she was seen on CCTV in Buzzacott Lane, Furzton at 8.16am, so we know for certain that she walked that way. We would expect her walking route to have taken her past Telytubbie Hill on Dulverton Drive. From that point we believe that Leah would have either taken a route north around Furzton Lake or along Loxbeare Drive into Shenley Lodge and north along Faraday Drive."

“We know for sure that the day before Leah’s disappearance she took a route which led her from Dulverton Drive and along Loxbeare Drive, under H7 Chaffron Way. She then took a combination of Faraday Drive and the adjacent redways through Shenley Lodge and into Knowlhill.
“However it appears that this was not the route Leah took on 15 February. It is for this reason we are appealing to the people who are local to these areas, and feel that there could still be someone out there with information we need.”

Police release new Leah Croucher appeal 2 years on from disappearance in MK - CitiBlog

 

[WiseOwl]

I wonder if the 11am cut off was simply due to the vol of cctv footage. If they collected 3 hours from anyone with dashcam, ring doorbell, cctv etc that is a lot of minutes. Especially if it has to be collected by someone official in case of an evidence chain. And then viewed.

That's a good point @Jenesaisquoi but what is strange is the date that the information was released (22 February) was only one week after Leah had gone missing. Why select those hours 8 - 11 when at that point in the investigation the police were still building up a picture of what potentially might have happened to her the previous week, why the 11.00 cut-off time?

Or had they already had the information that early from the three witnesses who said they had seen someone similar to Leah at Furzton Lake on the morning of the 15th? Then again, that information wasn't released to the public until 15 April, 2 months later.

 

[WiseOwl]

Thank you for the info regarding the lakes. I personally don't think she went into the lakes herself or she would've been found by now. But IMO it is possible her phone went into the lake.

Something else I found interesting regarding the morning timeline was that the police said she DID change her route on the day of disappearance.

Why would she do this? Would this be because:

A. Her mum advised her to vary her route? (as previously mentioned in MSM)
B. She had arranged to meet someone?
C. She decided to leave/disappear herself?
D. She decided to commit suicide?
E. Was she being followed and changed her route?

“As we know, Leah walked to work in Knowlhill most mornings. On Friday 15 February she was seen on CCTV in Buzzacott Lane, Furzton at 8.16am, so we know for certain that she walked that way. We would expect her walking route to have taken her past Telytubbie Hill on Dulverton Drive. From that point we believe that Leah would have either taken a route north around Furzton Lake or along Loxbeare Drive into Shenley Lodge and north along Faraday Drive."

“We know for sure that the day before Leah’s disappearance she took a route which led her from Dulverton Drive and along Loxbeare Drive, under H7 Chaffron Way. She then took a combination of Faraday Drive and the adjacent redways through Shenley Lodge and into Knowlhill.
“However it appears that this was not the route Leah took on 15 February. It is for this reason we are appealing to the people who are local to these areas, and feel that there could still be someone out there with information we need.”

Police release new Leah Croucher appeal 2 years on from disappearance in MK - CitiBlog

I think A or B are the most likely, i do recall Leah's mum saying she advised her to alternate her route to work every day. But yes the possibility that Leah arranged to meet someone could well be the reason she changed her route that morning.

As for E, wasn't there footage of Leah walking to walk on Buzzacott Lane the previous day (14 Feb) and someone was spotted not far behind her? I can't remember now but did this person ever come forward to say who they were?

 

[LINEOFDUTY]

Hi WiseOwl, re the young man walking behind her on the very first video released, there was a later announcement from LE that this person had been traced and was not involved. I cant recall or find any further information about him. If he also regularly walked that route it would have been easy for LE to identify him.
The various timings and witness sightings. Re: The witness who saw a person who might have been Leah at the small bridge on the East side plus the initial reports of the sightings at the teardrop lakes. I am going to walk back and forth to and from some of these places to see if i can make any sense of the timings. If I was to take the view that all of the sightings were Leah can I make sense of the timings.
My initial thought was that the announcements that witnesses saw her at the Teardrop lakes was an error. But can LE really make such a basic mistake. It seems unlikely.
Any replies to my question ..."Have any Ws members had a meeting with LE to try to eliminate some of the issues causing confusion" . After-all we ARE trying to help them.

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

Hi LineofDuty,

I am not local to MK. I occasionally send a thought or question through to LE on the online reporting tool, but I don’t get a reply. I don’t really expect to based on my experiences with other cases with other police forces.
In the first year, I did get chased up by Leah team when I said I would send them something and didn’t due to my lacking of technical skills. So we sorted that out.

 

[WiseOwl]

Hi WiseOwl, re the young man walking behind her on the very first video released, there was a later announcement from LE that this person had been traced and was not involved. I cant recall or find any further information about him. If he also regularly walked that route it would have been easy for LE to identify him.
The various timings and witness sightings. Re: The witness who saw a person who might have been Leah at the small bridge on the East side plus the initial reports of the sightings at the teardrop lakes. I am going to walk back and forth to and from some of these places to see if i can make any sense of the timings. If I was to take the view that all of the sightings were Leah can I make sense of the timings.
My initial thought was that the announcements that witnesses saw her at the Teardrop lakes was an error. But can LE really make such a basic mistake. It seems unlikely.
Any replies to my question ..."Have any Ws members had a meeting with LE to try to eliminate some of the issues causing confusion" . After-all we ARE trying to help them.

Thanks for your reply @LINEOFDUTY, i just couldn't recall if the person in the footage had been traced or not!

As for any WS's members meeting with the TVP, i doubt if anyone has. I think that there were some poster's in thread #1 who were from MK, possibly 2 or 3 maybe? If you have enough time maybe go back and look through the first thread to see what posters are local to MK. I might have a look myself later.

Also did you pick up my question i asked you yesterday about if the police knocked on your door during the first week Leah disappeared? They said they had knocked on 4,000 doors during that first week but i am doubtful if this figure is correct?

 

[LINEOFDUTY]

Hi WiseOwl, sorry missed your question. Yes Officers did visit a week after the 15th, and asked us the normal range of questions. I gave them the information, and photographs i had taken around the lake that week most of it is in my first Ws submission. Three weeks ago I sent that information again plus some additional thoughts.
Officers say even if you reported something, it may have been overlooked with the huge amount of reports they were receiving. Thats one of the reasons I sent it again.
There are lots of photos on this site and Google earth in particular is valuable for examining the area in detail. But i attach a photo I took myself which shows top right Telly Tubby Hill and the direct path to the Pavilion and NorthEast corner. The Watling street car park, Hotel with the Red route to its side and the bird feeding car park.

 

[HollyHunter9]

As others have mentioned above I'm not sure if any WS's have had any dealings with LE regarding the case as without hard evidence there is probably not a lot we could share with them,especially those of us not local. Usually any theories discussed on the thread often are cleared up by locals such as yourself who may correct us that LE have already investigated these avenues.

 

[LINEOFDUTY]

Thanks.HollyHunter9.

I may try a contact if only to see if they can eliminate a few more issues or if there are other ways we can help.
I have, despite how cold it is, walked from the hotel car park to the first large Tear Drop lake. There are two pathways you can take. Both took 14 minutes... A familiar figure by now!
What looks like a more direct route ends up walking within 80 yards of Leahs work place, which is currently closed. I assume thats due to Covid. I cant image her walking that close as bound to bump into people she knows. The other route is much more private and follows part of the stream from Furzton to the first lake. Even though we have had a huge amount of rain this stream varies in width from a trickle to 20 ft wide. Taking an earlier point you raised, its pretty rough terrain so i hope it was fully checked by LE. Having said that in the summer its an area packed with walkers and there are fishing platforms on these lakes.
I will do some work on timings back and forth just to see if any of it gels together with the various sightings.

 

[Stewlb]

I was curious about the taxis journeys, I believe the information came from a statement made by CC although now unable to find it...
It mentioned taxis costs on Leah's Bank statements from memory it was £13.00 each way, would the TVP be able to go to the taxis firm and gain the information of what these exact journeys were? as with all companies I'm sure that they would have to keep a record of all journeys for a certain amount of years.
Or does this again go back to the fact Leah was 19 and an adult when she went missing therefore her privacy is protected?
Just wondering as if this information was gained from her bank statement surely it would also say the taxis company the charges were from?

 

[Stewlb]

Thanks for your reply @LINEOFDUTY, i just couldn't recall if the person in the footage had been traced or not!

As for any WS's members meeting with the TVP, i doubt if anyone has. I think that there were some poster's in thread #1 who were from MK, possibly 2 or 3 maybe? If you have enough time maybe go back and look through the first thread to see what posters are local to MK. I might have a look myself later.

Also did you pick up my question i asked you yesterday about if the police knocked on your door during the first week Leah disappeared? They said they had knocked on 4,000 doors during that first week but i am doubtful if this figure is correct?

Hi Wiseowl, from memory the lad was identified; but I also think the footage was from the day before but on Shenley Lodge not Furzton.
I know initially it caused great confusion as to when it actually was that Leah went missing the 14th or the 15th Feb.

 

[WiseOwl]

I was curious about the taxis journeys, I believe the information came from a statement made by CC although now unable to find it...
It mentioned taxis costs on Leah's Bank statements from memory it was £13.00 each way, would the TVP be able to go to the taxis firm and gain the information of what these exact journeys were? as with all companies I'm sure that they would have to keep a record of all journeys for a certain amount of years.
Or does this again go back to the fact Leah was 19 and an adult when she went missing therefore her privacy is protected?
Just wondering as if this information was gained from her bank statement surely it would also say the taxis company the charges were from?

I believe the first mention of the taxi rides came from Leah's mom:

DAILY MIRROR 30 October 2019: Leah's mum Claire has now broken her silence to talk about the relationship with the man - who cannot be named for legal reasons - who was either engaged or married.

"She was talking about this man all the time. It was X this and X that... it was obvious she had a soft spot for him. She'd go and see him in the evenings, paying £13 each way for a taxi. It just wasn't like Leah to do things like that - she'd always been such a home-loving person and didn't like going out much."

Question is where would £13 have taken Leah from her home back in 2018/19? The Premier Inn at Furzton maybe?