GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[Blondiexoxo]

The jury being on the 4th day of deliberations sounds like a long time but when you consider they’re probably not starting until atleast 10am, add in bathroom breaks, drinks, lunch, then they finished around 3 yesterday I’d bet only 3 or so hours a day are being spent actually deliberating. They go home at night come back in the morning and probably have a refresh of what they went over the day before, there’s 12 people in that room wanting to speak, taking notes, giving their opinions, each one will have their own input and that will inevitably take time. Add in the extremely serious charges there is some hard thinking and deliberating to be done. If a jury is out half an hour it leads possibility that he could appeal in future, or even get a new trial if they find the jury did not appear to spend much time considering the verdict.

As we all are here on WS the jury are probably debating over the murder charge, the possibility of a manslaughter conviction will give them a lot more to consider too, this all takes time. Them wanting a re read of SA’s testimony could be they are trying to get past whether Libby was alive after the rape. They probably want to know if Libby was still screaming after PR was seen hurrying away from the area IMO. Rape is pretty much a no brainier. It’s the murder/manslaughter vs not guilty that’s going to be difficult to get 12 people to unanimously agree on.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I place little reliance on the stated duration of the screams being absolute;witness accounts are notoriously unreliable in this regard with studies even showing estimations of the same witness varying depending on whether they’re asked to judge total time of an event or estimate the duration of each individual component.

I agree, really hard to judge 3 or 4 minutes when you’re half asleep and it’s all a bit abstract.

But clearly it did happen - he heard screams and he saw a man at the corresponding times - and in retrospect it was likely to do with Libby.

 

[C.greek]

To be honest...who wouldn't walk quickly through a park at night when freezing cold ..

Why be there though in the first place?

 

[Mommysleuth11]

But it doesn't have to fit into 7.5 mins if he went back later. This timeline is an artificial one

Even going back later if 2 mins to run in each direction we still have the same issues of very little time left to do anything else.

 

[Tortoise]

And I believe the leaving time of his final visit was his car turning into the main road, so cuts it even finer.

Quoting judge's summing up :

"he went out again to Oak Road, the lights pick up at the Astra at around 2.25am and they are seen going onto Beresford Avenue four and a half minutes later."

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury out for fourth day

 

[Becky53]

And I believe the leaving time of his final visit was his car turning into the main road, so cuts it even finer.

Was it not the flashing lights seen on the Mauri CCTV at 00:19 or there about?

 

[Joolz1975]

I think this too. He knew he had to deny setting foot in the park so he said they had sex on Oak Road to distance himself from the river scenario. In reality, he could have had approx 3 minutes to get himself and Libby up to the pond before raping her and her screaming. That went on for a couple more minutes before he then legged it back to his car.

Now, did he kill her (and personally I think she was smothered during the attack, to silence her) and throw her in the river on visit 2, or did he leave her near the bank and jog up there to put her in on visit 3?

Either or, if you question the location near the green shed, an alternative location nearer the water a) makes the timescales more credible, and b) fits better with SA’s testimony.

I dont believe the green shed story one little bit. I agree he is trying to distance himself from the river.

He would want to rape her as far away from those houses as possible IMO.

I am torn on whether her put her in the river on the 2nd or 3rd visit. I think probably the 2nd and the 3rd was just to check that her body had moved from that spot.

I still believe the timings of the screams evidenced by SA are the more accurate ones and that the 12.30 screams that the other 2 witnesses heard were the same ones with the timings slightly out (otherwise surely all of them would have heard 2 lots of scream).

I am still torn on whether he meant to kill her or whether the rape went wrong when he was trying to silence her though. But either way I think he put her in the river i dont believe she ended up there accidentally or that it was suicide.

 

[bos]

Well spotted. You are linking this to the witness saying there was a hood I presume?

Yes in answer to @Steve2021 who asked about it, I mucked up a reply with quotes earlier & deleted it to avoid the wrath of @Cherwell

 

[Tortoise]

Was it not the flashing lights seen on the Mauri CCTV at 00:19 or there about?

See the post just above yours, I've added the quote from judge's summing up. His last visit was 4.5 mins in total, including being in the car driving away.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Thank you @jamjim for another day of being on verdict watch!!

 

[JosieJo]

Dbm

 

[JosieJo]

Why be there though in the first place?

I dont disagree with you just pointing out the walk speed wouldn't be abnormal in the freezing dark

 

[bos]

I agree, really hard to judge 3 or 4 minutes when you’re half asleep and it’s all a bit abstract.

But clearly it did happen - he heard screams and he saw a man at the corresponding times - and in retrospect it was likely to do with Libby.

Yip, there were a set of screams, intermittent in nature that 2/3 witnesses thought were female. The witness with a direct view of the park saw a man heading to the exit after the screams ceased.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Even going back later if 2 mins to run in each direction we still have the same issues of very little time left to do anything else.

How many seconds do you reckon it takes a strapping young man to pick up a heavy object and throw/push/roll it away? 10 seconds? 20? 30?

 

[Steve2021]

I said before, if I were on the jury I would be uneasy about SA's version and timings, and how it differs timewise from the later alleged cries heard by the other two witnesses which the defence placed credence on and the prosecution dismissed. That's me on the jury there sending notes!

If you accept SA isn't so incompetent he can't even read the 12.14 time correctly on his phone when he awoke...it's rather difficult/impossible when he says the screams started just one minute later to say he could be mistaken and they started at 12.30 as per the Claremont witnesses. Unless he fell asleep again and woke up again without realising it?

 

[Pinkizzy]

Did the cops find traces of Libby's DNA near the shed? The dogs were sniffing around a bench at some point during the search.

 

[JosieJo]

54JAMES CAMPBELL
Jury asked for witness statement to be read out
The judge has been called back in to re-read the statment of Sam Alford at the request of the jury..


Having read what SA said in court with more detail for me there is no doubt it was him and libby..and he over estimated the scream time...but im trying to think through what it tells me

He is certain the first scream he heard was 12.15hrs ...I feel this would fit as it would take 3 minutes or so to get her far enough into the park
Working backwards if im pretty sure it was PR he saw walking back to the car that would be 12.18 ish

3 minutes to rape or rape and suffocate simultaneously, get up and walk back into view is acceptable too just about

But

How do I know whether she stopped screaming because she was dead or unconscious or because he had stopped and walked away from her after just rape.
The noise stopping does not mean death ...she could have been frightened to scream in case he came back or more quietly sobbing that SA wouldn't hear for example.

Normally I would ask myself why would a woman then accidentally end up in the river?surely he put her there
But because she was so vulnerable and staggering etc and according to the prosecution towards the river i have to consider its possible she walked towards the nearest lights which would be across the river

How can I be sure he killed or raped and walked away? This is my dilemma

 

[tedtink]

See the post just above yours, I've added the quote from judge's summing up. His last visit was 4.5 mins in total, including being in the car driving away.

From the Prosecutor which suggests around 4.5 mins outside of the car............

"Relowicz is now being asked about his third visit to the playing fields, in the early hours of February 1.

He arrived there at 2.25am and left a little after 2.30am."

Pawel Relowicz returns to witness stand as week two of trial ends

 

[C.greek]

I dont disagree with you just pointing out the walk speed wouldn't be abnormal in the freezing dark

Indeed. All I am saying is that based on SA's statement(and it's the first time we heard it all so it makes much more sense) that person seen walking out of the park was almost certainly PR. We have 'established' there would be no reason for someone to be there that cold night - especially with a brisk walk as if to get out of there. Hypotheses that were mentioned before in here that it could be someone wanting their peace or whatever or enjoy the park at night would not be substantiated by the way that person was seen walking, as if to get out of there asap. So having read the statement, I am pretty convinced now of PR being guilty for murdering her. The silence after the screams indicate to me her death/dying/ being left unconscious and the fact that that man was seen walking with a purpose to get out of there without looking back could show that he knew of her fate. Jmo

 

[JosieJo]

Indeed. All I am saying is that based on SA's statement(and it's the first time we heard it all so it makes much more sense) that person seen walking out of the park was almost certainly PR. We have 'established' there would be no reason for someone to be there that cold night - especially with a brisk walk as if to get out of there. Hypotheses that were mentioned before in here that it could be someone wanting their peace or whatever or enjoy the park at night would not be substantiated by the way that person was seen walking, as if to get out of there asap. So having read the statement, I am pretty convinced now of PR being guilty for murdering her. The silence after the screams indicate to me her death/dying/ being left unconscious and the fact that that man was seen walking with a purpose to get out of there without looking back could show that he knew of her fate. Jmo

I do not disagree with most ...I just have no way of knowing if the screams stopped because she was dead or because the rape was over and he left her there and walked quickly away from the scene