GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[C.greek]

Some do some dont ...locals vary.
The 359 metres quoted by the prosecution is conveniently as the crow flies

Many people think the timeline is tight not just me as does the defence...also even the prosecution are twitchy about it ...they purposely try to cover it in their opening speech before the defence bring it up

I accept some people don't have a problem with the timing ...just as many do worry about it ....no one is right or wrong here

I am wondering when did the defence suggest that they have a problem with the timing? (Maybe they did of course but from the snippets I have seen, I didn't get that impression). Their line of argument is that PR left her outside the park alive and well and that they never got into the park.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Last post from me for today! Need to go to bed! My thinking was that judging from cctv and witness statements she was unable to stand up by herself, she needed help. Once up she could indeed walk. Nobody has questioned this and it remains a real possibility she wouldn't be able to.

"In a statement to court, Leon Caplin said: “She stumbled against a wall and onto the floor. My friend Ollie went to her and asked if she was ok but she got up and started to walk towards Beverley Road. She was struggling to walk in a straight line.”
"Another witness, Lorna Allen, described Ms Squire "lying on the floor and crying and screaming" near a bus stop shortly before midnight.
"She was slurring her words and talking to herself and she seemed very drunk," she said.
In her statement, Ms Allen said she had asked Ms Squire if she was all right but the student had "got up and staggered" away."

 

[C.greek]

I think we’ve discussed this previously. But my issue is, I see the timeline would have to be like this;

Arrive, Rape, Kill, Panic/Thought, life and carry, dispose, return to car.

so my doubts about that being possible in the 7.5 minutes;

The rape would have had to have started instantly or alternatively LS would have had to have fled instantly and been tracked down by PR (that could link to the screaming)
The rape would have had to have lasted seconds.
The killing would have had to have lasted seconds
There would be no time process for PR to think how or where to hide the body
PR would have also had to negotiate the terrain and area around the river with 50 - 60kg of dead weight

When I take all the above in to account I can’t fit in the timeframe. It is possible disposal could be on visit 3. But again I’d find it tight, this is just my opinion.

I would go with the Freudian slips of PR. He mentioned several times that he went back for a 3rd time because he was wondering whether she was laying on the ground somewhere... so 3rd visit was to dispose of her body ETA jmo

 

[NorthernSoul]

Agree

From the pictures we've seen, from what locals have said AND even from the prosecutions summing up (which as far as we're aware the defence didn't mention) - it looked like a river that would not be easy to fall into. In a drunk and hypothermic state.



How likely is that, given what we've already seen on CCTV? She was already falling over. She's now been hypothermic for longer. And she's been raped. And PR is adamant he left her in Oak Road.

How would she make that effort? To get up, traverse the park, climb an incline which is probably slippy to see the lights of industry then thru the weeds into the river. Rather than stumblng back to path of least resistance and falling over and dying in the park. Or on the banks?

I know it is essential to find the truth but it does kind of feel like PR is being given the benefit the doubt over everything and Libby none.

A fit 24 year who has managed to rape somebody is suddenly too helpless to do it despite some local people saying he could. A drunk hypothermic girl we've seen falling could however go for a yomp across a park and into a river.

IMO misadventure would be likely if Libby's body had been found in the park. If PR had admitted to 'having sex' right at the start because he'd be concerned she'd be found.

Oops!

 

[Newthoughts]

Some do some dont ...locals vary.
The 359 metres quoted by the prosecution is conveniently as the crow flies

Many people think the timeline is tight not just me as does the defence...also even the prosecution are twitchy about it ...they purposely try to cover it in their opening speech before the defence bring it up

I accept some people don't have a problem with the timing ...just as many do worry about it ....no one is right or wrong here

Technically one group will be right and one wrong since we only been presented with two scenarios tho I know what you mean.

We have Murder and placing in the river by PR or misadventure starting from outside the park.

PR hasn't given us the option of considering him bringing Libby closer to the river in any of his statements for some reason. Therefore I don't see why he should be given the benefit of the doubt on that by postulating an scenarios where he had. He's lied for a reason.

If Libby had been found dead in the park or even he'd said he'd taken closer to the river I would have reasonable doubt.

There is also later evidence that has to be considered - why lie about something that was very likely going to be discovered.

 

[NorthernSoul]

There are a lot of images showing areas with a flat grassy bank - no brambles, weeds or anything else, leading directly into the water.

This should have been attached to my previous post!

 

[Niner]

Thanks for update!

Are you doing the court updates today? Nice to share the honours, m'lud!

No, just posting the update for the previous day - I'll leave the posts to @jamjim !

 

[C.greek]

"In a statement to court, Leon Caplin said: “She stumbled against a wall and onto the floor. My friend Ollie went to her and asked if she was ok but she got up and started to walk towards Beverley Road. She was struggling to walk in a straight line.”
"Another witness, Lorna Allen, described Ms Squire "lying on the floor and crying and screaming" near a bus stop shortly before midnight.
"She was slurring her words and talking to herself and she seemed very drunk," she said.
In her statement, Ms Allen said she had asked Ms Squire if she was all right but the student had "got up and staggered" away."

Yep, two witnesses as JosieJo (I think ) also mentioned. However there were others who didn't say she got up but rather they helped her get up. And cctv shows that as well. I am not presenting it as a fact that she couldn't get up on her own of course. But I'd imagine after being attacked and raped her abilities would be even more diminished. Jmo

 

[Newthoughts]

I think we’ve discussed this previously. But my issue is, I see the timeline would have to be like this;

Arrive, Rape, Kill, Panic/Thought, lift and carry, dispose, return to car.

so my doubts about that being possible in the 7.5 minutes;

The rape would have had to have started instantly or alternatively LS would have had to have fled instantly and been tracked down by PR (that could link to the screaming)
The rape would have had to have lasted seconds.
The killing would have had to have lasted seconds
There would be no time process for PR to think how or where to hide the body
PR would have also had to negotiate the terrain and area around the river with 50 - 60kg of dead weight

When I take all the above in to account I can’t fit in the timeframe. It is possible disposal could be on visit 3. But again I’d find it tight, this is just my opinion.

I would take out panic and thought. There was no hesitation shown.

Rapes are often brutal and quick. His later masturbation caught on CCTV took seconds.

Why carrying a dead weight? Why not dragging a living one? Watch the cctv from Beverley road - at the bus stop it looks like his dragging her.

If he's taken her to the river seconds more to put her in

 

[C.greek]

There are a lot of images showing areas with a flat grassy bank - no brambles, weeds or anything else, leading directly into the water.

This should have been attached to my previous post!

Agreed but again we are thinking that an extremely disoriented hypothermic lass was able to find the most way convenient way to the river all by herself after being raped or at least attacked.

 

[Sooty]

Because the prosecution think that she was left dead or dying after being raped. Jmo

The prosecution think she was dead or dying when she entered the water specifically. Obviously, this was after the alleged rape. I say alleged to be correct, not because of what I believe.

 

[Sooty]

It appears that a some locals disagree with that. I'm not quite sure what the issue is with timing is? It's 359 metre there. 359 metres back? He's 24 not 64

it took them 30 seconds just to get out the car. How long would it take to get someone 150 metres or 350 metres if they are having to be forced that distance. Particularly so when it is likely to be icy.

 

[C.greek]

Obviously they did but its their job to prove no other scenario was possible

Genuine qs: would the prosecution know beforehand the scenario the defence would put forward? (One can easily see I am a newbie in trial cases here in WS!)

 

[Newthoughts]

For misadventure Libby has to start outside the park in Oak Road.

People can't speculate on her being left close to the river by PR because that hasn't been his defence.

In none of his stories does he take her into the park. So no 'left close to the river' option should be considered really. It is not been presented for some reason. Which is, in itself, suspicious.

Earlier CCTV shows she can barely walk and has often been helped up. The darts players found her lying in snow.

By this point she'd be colder and her blood alcohol is still 3 times the legal drink limit as per the toxicology reports. The terrain is less conducive to walking. She avoids all CCTV.

How do the misadventure theorists get her to the river avoiding CCTV from outside the park?

Who was the man?

 

[NorthernSoul]

Agreed but again we are thinking that an extremely disoriented hypothermic lass was able to find the most way convenient way to the river all by herself after being raped or at least attacked.

I wasn't thinking she was trying to find her way to the river, more wandering distraught and could have been for some time.

 

[jamjim]

09:48
Tough decisions to be made
As the jury enters day five of its deliberations it is clear difficult decisions have to be made.

The members have to decide whether Pawel Relowicz whether he raped Libby and whether he murdered her or is guily of manslaughter. You can find more about the choices they have by clicking here

Jury to decide if Libby death was murder, manslaughter or tragedy

 

[Sooty]

For misadventure Libby has to start outside the park in Oak Road.

People can't speculate on her being left close to the river by PR because that hasn't been his defence.

In none of his stories does he take her into the park. So no 'left close to the river' option should be considered really. It is not been presented for some reason. Which is, in itself, suspicious.

Earlier CCTV shows she can barely walk and has often been helped up. The darts players found her lying in snow.

By this point she'd be colder and her blood alcohol is still 3 times the legal drink limit as per the toxicology reports. The terrain is less conducive to walking. She avoids all CCTV.

How do the misadventure theorists get her to the river avoiding CCTV from outside the park?

Who was the man?

I will try and answer using the facts we have been presented with rather than my opinion of them. I know that you will disregard them, but they are the facts. Here goes.

We don’t know who the man is. It could be PR but we don’t have a lot to go on, other than he (PR) was in the area about 5 minutes before the sighting.

LS was disorientated, uncoordinated and confused. She was, as far as we know, able to walk even if her coordination was affected. She had gone in the wrong directions previously.

 

[Bethan]

People saying 7.5 mins isnt enough to rape and murder someone?

1) he probably lasted a minute.
2) he probably held her mouth closed whilst rape was happening?

How is there not enough time?
You all know the playing fields isnt as big as google maps portrays it to be right?

Apologies.....as I´m catching up on yesterday´s posts.... a thought that keeps running through my mind when we discuss timings.

Relowicz didn't need to suffocate Libby until she was dead ( ie a full 4 mins)....only until she stopped screaming or was incapacitated.

In fact, it would be to his advantage if she was still alive when she entered the river, as if her body was recovered, drowning would be the COD.

Not saying these thoughts went through his mind at the time of the hurried attack & rape...but maybe they did when he was home ( washing away the evidence) thinking about what he'd done & how he was going to get away with it.

For me, his 3rd visit to the park....returning to the scene of the crime...is incriminating circumstantial evidence.

 

[jamjim]

09:57
No weather problems

Sheffield once again looks pretty clear of any adverse wintry conditions.

This means that hopefully the jury members will be okay getting to court to continue considering their verdict.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks

 

[Tortoise]

I am wondering when did the defence suggest that they have a problem with the timing? (Maybe they did of course but from the snippets I have seen, I didn't get that impression). Their line of argument is that PR left her outside the park alive and well and that they never got into the park.

12:58
'What happened at Oak Road?'

Mr Saxby said: “What happened at Oak Road? What is the evidence? Five areas: The CCTV, Alford, Brewster and Durkin, the DNA, evidence of Dr Lyall and evidence of Professor Deakin.

“The prosecution theory: They don’t have to prove precisely how Pawel Relowicz killed Libby Squire but there is only a limited amount of options and they have to prove that he did actually kill her. Their case in opening was that ‘at Oak Road having exited his vehicle, we say Relowicz raped Libby and killed her, causing her death during that act of sexual violence which culminated in him putting her dead or dying into the River Hull’ as in he put his hand over her mouth, asphyxiating her.

“Of the seven and a half minutes he was away from his car, the theory continued, ‘that window was more than enough time for the defendant to have taken or pursue Libby out into the playing fields, sexually attacked and killed her, put her body in the river and run back to the car.’ Sprint, more like.

“They were good enough to accept it was ‘tight’ the timing. You see the maps and the photos, you know the distances and the conditions - dark, wet and slippery. There is a lot to be done in that time, including taking or pursuing her. If there is one bit of hard work I ask you to do is this: What is it they’re saying happened to Libby? They have to present some sort of violent scenario, how did she get to by the water? Did he rape her by the car, kill her there and then carry her? Did he take her along the path and rape her by the pond and kill her? Where was this pursuing? It’s because of the intermittent screaming - not one terrible scream, that’s why they use that word because they want you to picture him pursuing her.

“He did get her over there by the river, one way or another. He took her and chased after her for a period and raped her and so on. No wonder they needed him to be running on Sam Alford’s account. Perhaps because of this problem they have another variation - we were told it is perfectly possible he didn’t put her body into the water until the third visit.

“Those are the theories, framed you may think, by the evidence.”

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement