GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[Ruthbullock]

No offence to anyone intended whatsoever, and I am not making any excuses. There are many people however, that still think this way - they think it’s some sort of entitlement and that it’s easy to get away with.

It is true, coercive behaviour is often down to that belief.

 

[C.greek]

We know what PR did was wrong.

But...
I don’t think PR knew what he did was wrong. (Apart from the fact that he saw it as cheating on his wife)
I don’t think he thought masturbating in the street was wrong. He referred to these crimes as ‘silly’ showing no understanding for how they affected the women.
I don’t think he saw having sex with Libby was wrong.
I don’t think he thought at all that Libby would even remember it the next day so I don’t think he thought there was a risk he would be reported.

ETA what he thinks obviously doesn’t alter the crime - but it does eliminate a possible motive

I am sorry but I cannot agree with this rationale. He took sexual pleasure in terrifying women. If he didn't understand this was wrong he would have already been locked up and be classed as of diminished responsibility.

 

[Sooty]

Just because someone thinks are entitled to masturbate in the street or steal sex toys or rape does not mean they do not know it is wrong though.

thats true.

I guess it depends on who they think is going to judge them.

 

[Cherwell]

No offence to anyone intended whatsoever, and I am not making any excuses. There are many people however, that still think this way - they think it’s some sort of entitlement and that it’s easy to get away with.

I'm not offended, and I think there's probably some truth in what you say. It ties in with his ideas of what qualifies as "cheating on his wife" and what doesn't.

There are unpalatable truths, and nobody should be criticised for mentioning them, or examining someone's attitudes. It's not the same as excusing or justifying them.

 

[Sooty]

I'm not offended, and I think there's probably some truth in what you say. It ties in with his ideas of what qualifies as "cheating on his wife" and what doesn't.

There are unpalatable truths, and nobody should be criticised for mentioning them, or examining someone's attitudes. It's not the same as excusing or justifying them.

Thank you Cherwell

as you say it is unpalatable, as is much of the subject matter in this case.

 

[Newthoughts]

I realise I am being a bit pedantic, but I find it really difficult to accept ‘as fact’ that which we don’t have any evidence for, and that which can have more than one possible inference. Surely reaching a conclusion from an event that has two more more possible inferences is still speculation?


Edited for clarification.

No case will ever yield total proof and 100% certainty tho. Or very few.

Earlier on @bos posted a really good post about determining beyond all reasonable doubt.

Realistically there are limited versions of what happened between PR arriving at Oak Road and Libby ending up in the river. The job is to decide what is plausible using everything you know. Prior offending, later behaviour, lies, subtle hints.

"Mr Saxby has already invited the jury to consider misadventure."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

"Mr Saxby has already invited the jury to consider misadventure."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

They did indeed - the tortured soul stuff wandering off stuff.

That's why I said I 'suspect' even they don't 'believe' misadventure is possible from there. I was offering my opinions. IMO misadventure from outside the park is unlikely.

That's their best, and probably only realistic defence I would expect a lot more about Libby's ability to walk that night. Lots more about parts of the river with steeper sides. Lots more about clearer pathways to it.

More about her youth and resilience rather than her mental health. More about screams in Oak Road before she sets off rather than in the park. Things that would make it more likely than just wandering off and finding the river.

IMO I'd expect a good defence to put PR at least some way into the park with Libby to help misadventure as explicit testimony rather than hints about accepting some lies. But that's my opinion only and I wouldn't feel I had to accept that lie

If I can offer another opinion - I suspect the defence don't believe much of the rest of PRs story either. But quite rightly - everyone deserves a fair trial.

Based on other evidence I think guilty. But I haven't heard it all

You think him not guilty.

I think the jury will find him not guilty as well.

 

[Cherwell]

I guess it depends on who they think is going to judge them.

It ties in with his ideas of what qualifies as "cheating on his wife" and what doesn't.

Exactly!

 

[tedtink]

For misadventure Libby has to start outside the park in Oak Road.

How do the misadventure theorists get her to the river avoiding CCTV from outside the park?

Who was the man?

Agree.
Who was the man leaving the park if it wasn't PR?
If it wasn't PR then surely that man would have witnessed Libby and PR near the green shed OR Libby going in the park on her own?

 

[tedtink]

Based on other evidence I think guilty. But I haven't heard it all

You think him not guilty.

I think the jury will find him not guilty as well.

I think so too.

 

[Newthoughts]

LB had most definitely been murdered and he was definitely disposing of her body.

This jury is being asked to consider a lot more to get to that inference. Even I would say more than experts in pathology could say beyond a reasonable doubt.

Milly Dowler wasn't found for months after her disappearance in 2002. She was found in woodland so only her remains were found. Animals and time had removed all evidence. No cause of death could be given

Levi Bellfield wasn't convicted till 2010.

No CCTV remained. No forensics remained. Ex partners testimony of timing was allowed despite the time gap. He was convicted of her murder.

In 2016 he also confessed to her rape.

Based on what people here expect he wouldn't have been convicted

 

[Joolz1975]

It is true, coercive behaviour is often down to that belief.

I agree that some people think that they are entitled to treat people in a deplorable way. However I think those people are well aware that what they are doing is wrong which is why it is all done so secretly..

If PR did not think that any of his behaviour was wrong then why did he skulk about under the cover of darkness to offend?

Entitlement and knowing right from wrong are two different things.

So he might have felt he was entitled to rape Libby but he knew it was wrong I have no doubt about that.

 

[jamjim]

@sophcorcoran
·
4s

The jury have asked to hear a summary of Dr Lyall’s evidence. The judge will read that out at 2pm. Trial has adjourned for lunch.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

We know what PR did was wrong.

But...
I don’t think PR knew what he did was wrong. (Apart from the fact that he saw it as cheating on his wife)
I don’t think he thought masturbating in the street was wrong. He referred to these crimes as ‘silly’ showing no understanding for how they affected the women.
I don’t think he saw having sex with Libby was wrong.
I don’t think he thought at all that Libby would even remember it the next day so I don’t think he thought there was a risk he would be reported.

ETA what he thinks obviously doesn’t alter the crime - but it does eliminate a possible motive

Can I ask why you think he would not think any of this is wrong? I understand he said his previous crimes were silly but I think he was trying to make light of them not because they were not wrong but to make LE think it was no big deal to him. I feel like If he did not think they were wrong he would have confessed right away when LE asked him about what they found in his car. But he first lied and denied they were his.

 

[Joolz1975]

@sophcorcoran
·
4s

The jury have asked to hear a summary of Dr Lyall’s evidence. The judge will read that out at 2pm. Trial has adjourned for lunch.

They are really going over this with a fine tooth comb. A good thing I suppose but awful for her family waiting so long.

 

[Lyall0814]

I think the jury will find him not guilty as well.

Not guilty of anything? Crikey.

 

[Cherwell]

There must be some furious rows in that jury room. A man who clearly demonstrated total contempt for women many times previously attacks a young woman who clearly can't defend herself very well, rapes her and shortly after being attacked she dies. And people are overthinking this and considering he's not guilty of murder? They'll have a lot of time to regret their decision later in their lives is all I can say.

Furious rows? I don't think you should assume that.

 

[Financejane]

Milly Dowler wasn't found for months after her disappearance in 2002. She was found in woodland so only her remains were found. Animals and time had removed all evidence. No cause of death could be given

Levi Bellfield wasn't convicted till 2010.

No CCTV remained. No forensics remained. Ex partners testimony of timing was allowed despite the time gap. He was convicted of her murder.

In 2016 he also confessed to her rape.

Based on what people here expect he wouldn't have been convicted

I thought that LB was just a vaguely possible suspect based on previous record that they just got lucky on until I read the book written by the lead detective and a book written from another’s perspective (can’t recall the author) and realised the evidence was very persuasive re guilty.

 

[C.greek]

@sophcorcoran
·
4s

The jury have asked to hear a summary of Dr Lyall’s evidence. The judge will read that out at 2pm. Trial has adjourned for lunch.

Oh, that's the pathologist right? We might be able to get a better idea of the evidence they gave now. I guess they are in between guilty not guilty. (For murder)

ETA I thought they had all the statements and evidence in their files, is that not so? Why ask again for rereading of the evidence/testimony?

 

[Newthoughts]

Not guilty of anything? Crikey.

I think they'll find him guilty of rape. Sadly I don't think murder. I personally think it's murder based on everything I've heard and understood.

Who knows where that will leave sentencing. Libby will only get partial justice.

 

[RubyLee87]

This man views women as objects for his own gratification. He thinks nothing of frightening women, abusing women, and I believe taking the life of a woman to cover up his actions. As we’ve seen in court, he’s also a compulsive liar. His only regret is that he got caught. He’s a dangerous predator and I know which version of the story I believe. Hoping the jury can make a decision soon. It must be an awful wait for Libby’s family.