GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[Sera]

Maybe it's just me but I'm finding it extremely difficult to try to bite my top lip with my own teeth. I can't even pull my top lip down under my top front teeth, so I really doubt that the laceration on Libby's top lip was from her own teeth. I think it was probably caused by PR before, during or after the rape. I have a horrible feeling it's somehow something to do with why forensics were at the bench in the park too.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Yes, and wouldn't an adult falling over on their face cause a lot more injuries than a small laceration?

Yes. Unfortunately I fell walking and could not get my hands out of my pocket fast enough. My nose which is not very big took the brunt of the damage. But my whole face was basically one big pavement abrasion! If Libby damaged her lip falling in the payment earlier we would have heard witnesses describing a very injured face!

 

[Newthoughts]

Knowing how many times she fell over that evening- I don’t think we can count that cut in her mouth as a wow statement. She has basically bit through the inside of her mouth with her teeth - could be caused by falling against a table or the floor. In order to be caused by PR he would have had to hit or punch in the mouth area and I think that would have caused more damage than just a laceration. JMO and I could be wrong, but it’s a common injury amongst young children who don’t have the quick response to put their hands out when they fall.

The mouth is quite vascular so if she'd fallen earlier we wouldn't witnesses have mentioned blood on her mouth. Or indeed other facial injuries.

Happened shortly before death because no bruising is another clue.

No witnesses report her falling onto a table of bench

 

[bos]

Am I being daft here, is "table" a typo?

My guess is it was used as an illustration of blunt force trauma; you can be still and hit by a moving object e.g a fist or moving and hit by a still object e.g a table.

 

[jamjim]

@sophcorcoran
·
20s

The jury have been sent out again to continue their deliberations.

 

[Winterbells]

Maybe it's just me but I'm finding it extremely difficult to try to bite my top lip with my own teeth. I can't even pull my top lip down under my top front teeth, so I really doubt that the laceration on Libby's top lip was from her own teeth. I think it was probably caused by PR before, during or after the rape. I have a horrible feeling it's somehow something to do with why forensics were at the bench in the park too.

I think if an external force presses against your top lip, your top teeth can cause a cut inside your top lip. I don't think you'd be able to replicate this effect yourself. My cat once fell out of a 1st floor window (and survived). I saw it happen from the street below. He landed on his chin and his bottom teeth had made a cut inside his lower 'lip' so to speak (I don't think cats have 'lips' per se). Anyway, I think that if PR had pushed his body weight down onto her mouth with his hand to keep her from screaming, it could have caused this injury.

 

[tedtink]

Sophie Corcoran

@sophcorcoran
·
20s

The jury have been sent out again to continue their deliberations.

Thank you @jamjim

 

[jamjim]

14:49
Evidence recap finished

Justice Lambert has now completed her recap of Dr Lyall's evidence which the jury requested.

They have now retired once more to continue their deliberations.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks

 

[Sooty]

Wouldn’t teeth usually make a horizontal laceration? I have been hit with force in the mouth by accident, (not by a person!) and my bottom teeth went into my lower lip. It made quite a wound, but it was definitely horizontal. Immediately it went hard, like a lump, and swollen.

 

[VicBlazey]

I had a good feeling that we'd get a verdict today... Now I think it's unlikely sadly.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Nobody said her mouth was bleeding prior to PR picking her up.
It could have been pressure (fist or hand) on the outside of the face causing the teeth to cut into the lip on the inside.

Personally I doubt that as it would have to be a sharp quick force in a specific place to pierce the skin like that. I don’t think a human could apply that much specific force voluntarily and only cause a laceration- it would cause significant damage. CPR is the perfect example - you would break the bones before you pierced the skin with the force. If he felt he could declare it was caused by a human hitting LS I believe he would have done.

 

[Newthoughts]

Am I being daft here, is "table" a typo?

My guess would be to explain the fact it was vertical? So it would have to be caused by something pressing vertically like falling onto something like a table edge or being hit.

It's interesting that it's vertical. Would that happen in water?

 

[bos]

The students who were about to get a taxi in Wellesley described Libby falling flat on her face.

However, although a number of witnesses mentioned her bloodied knees subsequently, no one to our knowledge has mentioned any bleeding or swelling of the mouth that would indicate that the laceration occurred then.

 

[Newthoughts]

Personally I doubt that as it would have to be a sharp quick force in a specific place to pierce the skin like that. I don’t think a human could apply that much specific force voluntarily and only cause a laceration- it would cause significant damage. CPR is the perfect example - you would break the bones before you pierced the skin with the force. If he felt he could declare it was caused by a human hitting LS I believe he would have done.

He did didn't he? Fist or table edge

 

[tigerowl]

I think it would be highly unlikely that Libby didn't sustain any kind of injury during the rape so suspect the mouth laceration was done by PR during that.

If they are still debating something as important as the pathologists evidence, sadly, I can't imagine there will be a result today. Libby's poor family must be beside themselves.

 

[NottReds50]

My guess would be to explain the fact it was vertical? So it would have to be caused by something pressing vertically like falling onto something like a table edge or being hit.

It's interesting that it's vertical. Would that happen in water?

One reason could be, and apologies this is quite graphic, is if whilst he was stifling her screams, her top lip might mot have been perpendicular to her teeth line, through force and a laceration.

or could be during water transit. Mouth's have the propensity to injury easily internally

 

[Mommysleuth11]

Am I being daft here, is "table" a typo?

Was it just a suggestion of possible causes for that type of injury? Not suggesting that was how it was actually caused?
That was my interpretation.

 

[Sooty]

We really didn’t get the whole report, the first time, did we?

How very sad to to hear it, though.

 

[Tortoise]

@Niner

Sheffield Crown Court 1 T20207204
Pawel Piotr Relowicz
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Jury retire to consider verdict - 10:35
Trial (Part Heard) - Jury retire to consider verdict - 13:10
Trial (Part Heard) - Jury retire to consider verdict - 14:45

https://www.thelawpages.com/court-hearings-lists/Sheffield-Crown-Court.php


1:08pm:



Sophie Corcoran

@sophcorcoran
·
1h

The jury have asked to hear a summary of Dr Lyall’s evidence. The judge will read that out at 2pm. Trial has adjourned for lunch.

 

[mrazda71]

The students who were about to get a taxi in Wellesley described Libby falling flat on her face.

However, although a number of witnesses mentioned her bloodied knees subsequently, no one to our knowledge has mentioned any bleeding or swelling of the mouth that would indicate that the laceration occurred then.

I think it's quite a British thing to say 'I fell flat on my face' but, it isn't to be taken as literally as it sounds. Same goes for 'I went arse over tit' ... it just means 'fell' in some way.