GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[bos]

asphyxiation as a cause of death is not always caused by murder, therefore his inclusion as a possible cause can be not be interpreted as his inference that she was murdered

I can get that if there was a plastic bag or a ligature or a piece of bedding or something that could indicate self-inflicted or accident. Can you explain what scenario would cause asphyxiation and cause Libby to enter the river? Not trying to be arsey, just been racking my brains to come up with something!

 

[Ruthbullock]

But Dr Lyall has also previously stated that the level of decomposition to the body made the post-mortem harder.
View attachment 283570

Which is quite logical and makes perfect sense

 

[C.greek]

I can get that if there was a plastic bag or a ligature or a piece of bedding or something that could indicate self-inflicted or accident. Can you explain what scenario would cause asphyxiation and cause Libby to enter the river? Not trying to be arsey, just been racking my brains to come up with something!

I think we should focus on the term mechanical asphyxia here

 

[Ruthbullock]

I can get that if there was a plastic bag or a ligature or a piece of bedding or something that could indicate self-inflicted or accident. Can you explain what scenario would cause asphyxiation and cause Libby to enter the river? Not trying to be arsey, just been racking my brains to come up with something!

Cold water shock

 

[stephaniejanes]

Cold water shock

None of the expert evidence supports that. Quite the contrary.

 

[jamjim]

16:23
Still no verdict as jury dismissed for the day

Justice Lambert has brought the jury back into court and has dismissed them for the day.

After five days and 20 hours of deliberations, the jury are still not ready yet to deliver a verdict. They will return again tomorrow.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks

 

[C.greek]

It's interesting when you read the statement the judge read out that there appears to be no bias whatsoever towards what may or may not have caused her death from the pathologist.

In some peoples interpretation of what was reported in HDM at the time of him giving testimony there was some belief that he was leaning towards a particular cause - but that doesn't come across to me in the info that has just been provided.

The pathologist does not have any bias - they state the facts. And the fact for me here is that drowning usually leaves tell-tale signs in an autopsy which would not be constrained by the level of decomposition and which are not so obvious in this case here. So the defence's scenario that she drowned I think should be disregarded.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

I think we will have a verdict tomorrow.

 

[Skigh]

And the bleeding could be the 'saliva' he mentioned ?

I was thinking the saliva could have occurred after asphyxiation,if that is what happened.

 

[Newthoughts]

So ...

Dr Lyalls evidence does state that she's dead though.

Dead.

Dead not evidently from drowning

Dead not evidently from hypothermia.

Dead after being stalked and coerced into his car (once he'd waited 'til the coast was clear of course) driven immediately to the area he'd scoped out earlier.

Dead after being raped by a "dangerous predatory sex offender".

And it's just a coincidence that after his lying and lying and lying and lying that the dead girl ended up in the river with the "dangerous predatory sex offenders" sperm inside her vagina by complete accident that no one can fathom?

Amazing what a few additional facts can add to a report isn't it.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

I am leaning in this direction as well. However, I have no doubt I could convict on rape and manslaughter. Even if they had “consensual” sex (which I don’t believe for a minute), she was clearly not in any position to give knowing consent. And even if he didn’t physically murder her and instead just left her there to wander off and drown, he had to have known she was in no state to have a good chance of surviving the elements based on the clothing she was wearing and the temperatures.

Yes, I take your point there.

I, too, have no hesitation on the rape.

Would leaving her in the state she was, but alive, be construed as manslaughter though?

 

[Sarahlou]

So ...

Dr Lyalls evidence does state that she's dead though.

Dead.

Dead not evidently from drowning

Dead not evidently from hypothermia.

Dead after being stalked and coerced into his car (once he'd waited 'til the coast was clear of course) driven immediately to the area he'd scoped out earlier.

Dead after being raped by a "dangerous predatory sex offender".

And it's just a coincidence that after his lying and lying and lying and lying that the dead girl ended up in the river with the "dangerous predatory sex offenders" sperm inside her vagina by complete accident that no one can fathom?

Precisely. I honestly wouldn't need long to make my decision here.

 

[Ruthbullock]

None of the expert evidence supports that. Quite the contrary.

Oh could you share why it’s the contrary? A poster asked how someone could die of asphyxiation and be in a river but not be murdered, I replied with a possible cause. Not specifically linked to LS- but merely as my original post was in relation to someone stating it must be murder as it included asphyxiation as one of the causes of death being examined.

 

[Emerald1328]

Yes, I take your point there.

I, too, have no hesitation on the rape.

Would leaving her in the state she was, but alive, be construed as manslaughter though?

That’s a good question and one that I think can only be answered by looking at the exact definition of manslaughter given to the jury in their instructions. Does anyone happen to know what that is?

 

[bos]

Cold water shock

But the involuntary gasping on entering cold water means water inhalation i.e drowning?

We’re talking mechanical asphyxiation though?
EBM
Ah, just sussed you may be talking about dry drowning rather than cold water shock

 

[Sooty]

Recap:
Mechanical asphyxia: is not excluded (tell-tale signs could not be preserved in water/time after death/decomposition)
Drowning: not prepared to say this was the likely explanation for her death (no tell-tale signs)
Hypothermia: not prepared to exclude it (but no findings)

In other words

Recap:

Mechanical asphyxia- not excluded
Drowning - not excluded
Hypothermia - not excluded

none of the tell tale signs would necessarily be preserved considering the length of time in the water/ decomposition.

Edit for spelling/grammar mistake

 

[stephaniejanes]

Cold water shock

None of the expert evidence supports that. Quite the contrary.

Oh could you share why it’s the contrary? A poster asked how someone could die of asphyxiation and be in a river but not be murdered, I replied with a possible cause. Not specifically linked to LS- but merely as my original post was in relation to someone stating it must be murder as it included asphyxiation as one of the causes of death being examined.

We are on a thread about Libby. My comment was about the evidence in this trial, not general possibilities of how any person may die... it seems confusing to mention points experts have discounted.

Expert testified she could have lived 30 mins standing in water of that temp, that is what my response referred to.

 

[Skigh]

16:23
Still no verdict as jury dismissed for the day

Justice Lambert has brought the jury back into court and has dismissed them for the day.

After five days and 20 hours of deliberations, the jury are still not ready yet to deliver a verdict. They will return again tomorrow.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks

Thanks Jamjim for court updates today. See you tomorrow!

 

[Newthoughts]

Oh could you share why it’s the contrary? A poster asked how someone could die of asphyxiation and be in a river but not be murdered, I replied with a possible cause. Not specifically linked to LS- but merely as my original post was in relation to someone stating it must be murder as it included asphyxiation as one of the causes of death being examined.

Firstly we're discussing this case where the pathologist did not offer so you can't just bring in cold water shock.

And secondly an expert on Libby's hypothermix state said the estimated water would be 10 degrees and he'd estimate she'd survive for 30 minutes. Allowing time to typically drown.

Hence quite the contrary to cold water shock.

 

[JosieJo]

I think the judge tells us all we need to know about the pathologist report ..all the speculation in the world will not help

"In relation to the count of murder she told them: “Bear in mind the expert evidence which doesn’t tell you great deal. Absence of signs of drowning and asphyxiation doesn’t mean she didn’t drown or was not asphyxiated."

Jury to decide if Libby death was murder, manslaughter or tragedy