Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #15 *ARREST*

[Mommysleuth11]

I have still been checking in daily and reading the thread but unfortunately at the moment i just havent felt as though i have a lot to offer to the discussion. Sadly i had hoped once she was found we would see some charges pretty quickly. The more time goes on i worry that that hasnt happened so far. I dont know very much about how the police work and timescales but the silence is deafening. It must be absolutely torturous for her loved ones, i hope they are doing ok.

 

[kate2931]

@Skigh Ive watched many a thread sadly go quiet. Abby & Libby are in my thoughts often. Whereas other threads struggle to get going, for example Leah Croucher’s. All due to varying reasons, lack of information, lack of publicity. None of which we have the right to, just a desire to understand and help bring closure. Very sad all around

I completely agree that PR is extremely devious. I just wonder if letting him stew will have any effect on him talking ? He kept all of his seedy deeds quiet from his wife & probably his colleagues for a good few years. I struggle to believe he has any sort of concience & think he may keep schtum to save his own skin.

Wouldn’t it be amazing if they could link certain fibres/plant spores to him? Ok so he may have admitted to being in the park but it could be the icing on the cake if something like the long grass only found on the bank of the river was on his clothing ? Hoping specialist type forensics are still coming back and could be part of the delay before charges.

 

[Skigh]

If they have enough for manslaughter they will have enough for murder

 

[Skigh]

@Skigh Ive watched many a thread sadly go quiet. Abby & Libby are in my thoughts often. Whereas other threads struggle to get going, for example Leah Croucher’s. All due to varying reasons, lack of information, lack of publicity. None of which we have the right to, just a desire to understand and help bring closure. Very sad all around

I completely agree that PR is extremely devious. I just wonder if letting him stew will have any effect on him talking ? He kept all of his seedy deeds quiet from his wife & probably his colleagues for a good few years. I struggle to believe he has any sort of concience & think he may keep schtum to save his own skin.

Wouldn’t it be amazing if they could link certain fibres/plant spores to him? Ok so he may have admitted to being in the park but it could be the icing on the cake if something like the long grass only found on the bank of the river was on his clothing ? Hoping specialist type forensics are still coming back and could be part of the delay before charges.

That sort of forensics is absolutely what I am hoping for.In my mind I have no doubt he killed Libby in the park and put her body in the river.
So there must be forensics to show that happened.

The Leah Croucher case is very strange.
I am surprised not more posters from here have been posting there.

 

[Miss_French]

If they have enough for manslaughter they will have enough for murder

Not necessarily, because there's the standards of conduct and intent that have to be proved.

 

[Skigh]

I can't see why manslaughter and not murder? There won't have been any emotional provocation. PR will have voluntarily taken Libby so it couldn't be an accidental killing.

I agree why a charge would be murder rather than manslaughter.There are no extenuating circumstance for manslaughter.

 

[JosieJo]

Personally I think the post mortem was inconclusive..if there had been a clear cause of death prior to going into the water it would be a murder enquiry not a homicide enquiry

Its possible they have been waiting for specialist tests to be done / come back that may change this position but until we hear more I think that's how it stands

I think he admitted picking her up and possibly admitted taking her to the park

If the amount of time he was in the area of the park caught on CCTV matches his version of events they are stuck

 

[Miss_French]

I agree why a charge would be murder rather than manslaughter.There are no extenuating circumstance for manslaughter.

We don't know (yet) that PR intended to kill Libby, so if he did something illegal or lost control and that resulted in her death it's manslaughter, not murder.

 

[Miss_French]

I can't see why manslaughter and not murder? There won't have been any emotional provocation. PR will have voluntarily taken Libby so it couldn't be an accidental killing.

If PR had sexual motive to take Libby, and her death was unintentional, that's not murder. He could say there's tension with his wife, took Libby, couldn't perform, lost control; that's not murder.

 

[Newthoughts]

Not necessarily, because there's the standards of conduct and intent that have to be proved.

I'm really not clear on the difference. I thought there had to be things like emotional provocation for manslaughter? Such as finding your partner in bed with someone else or an abusive partner - a sort of crime caused in the heat of the moment by sudden rage and loss of control? PR couldn't show that because there could not be that emotional connection? Wouldn't it be very difficult for a defence to argue PR had such an emotional connection to Libby that it pushed him to the edge and made it manslaughter? Or am I completely on the wrong track?

There must have been intent to harm otherwise she wouldn't have ended up, firstly in the park and then dead in the river. So thats got to be enough for abduction.

I know there are different degrees of murder so I don't think they'd have to show lots of planning would they?

Maybe @Happylappy101 could clarify?

 

[Miss_French]

Manslaughter can be committed in one of three ways:

1. Killing with the intent for murder but where a partial defence applies, namely loss of control, diminished responsibility or killing pursuant to a suicide pact.
2. Conduct that was grossly negligent given the risk of death, and did kill ("gross negligence manslaughter"); and
3. Conduct taking the form of an unlawful act involving a danger of some harm that resulted in death ("unlawful and dangerous act manslaughter").

Subject to three exceptions (see Voluntary Manslaughter below) the crime of murder is committed, where a person:

• Of sound mind and discretion (i.e. sane);
• unlawfully kills (i.e. not self-defence or other justified killing);
• any reasonable creature (human being);
• in being (born alive and breathing through its own lungs - Rance v Mid-Downs Health Authority (1991) 1 All ER 801 and AG Ref No 3 of 1994 (1997) 3 All ER 936;
• under the Queen's Peace (not in war-time);
• with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH).

Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[Newthoughts]

We don't know (yet) that PR intended to kill Libby, so if he did something illegal or lost control and that resulted in her death it's manslaughter, not murder.

Wouldn't the very act of doing something illegal to someone that already involves harm, such as rape, negate a manslaughter defence in that the intent to harm is already there if not the initial intent to kill?

Once in that situation of already harming someone it is still difficult to kill without intent. Lots of rapists manage to leave live victims. Do the deed and run away.

 

[Miss_French]

Wouldn't the very act of doing something illegal to someone that already involves harm, such as rape, negate a manslaughter defence in that the intent to harm is already there if not the initial intent to kill?

Once in that situation of already harming someone it is still difficult to kill without intent. Lots of rapists manage to leave live victims. Do the deed and run away.

See above; unless there's GBH with intent, it's manslaughter.

 

[Newthoughts]

See above; unless there's GBH with intent, it's manslaughter.

Sorry yes posted before I'd seen your post.

Have to admit to feeling very depressed by number 1 in that list - going for a loss of control defence seems like an obvious get out for PR. Could be used by lots of cold hearted murders.

 

[JosieJo]

We still do not 100% know if she died before entering the water yet

 

[Happygirlie2003]

I’m sure I read either in a much earlier thread here or MSM that Humberside Police had come under a lot of scrutiny for general failure in recent times so I’m thinking given this and the profile of this case being so high they are taking advantage of PR being in custody anyway to make this case 100% water tight so any charges will only be announced once the collation of their evidence is beyond reasonable doubt. They can’t afford their integrity to be questioned in this case or potentially PR could walk free

 

[Newthoughts]

I’m sure I read either in a much earlier thread here or MSM that Humberside Police had come under a lot of scrutiny for general failure in recent times so I’m thinking given this and the profile of this case being so high they are taking advantage of PR being in custody anyway to make this case 100% water tight so any charges will only be announced once the collation of their evidence is beyond reasonable doubt. They can’t afford their integrity to be questioned in this case or potentially PR could walk free

I hope so. Another good reason to keep it in the minds of local people and pressure on to get every single little thing that is relevant.

I agree he is safely locked up so there are no protection of the public issues. I'd guess any trial will potentially heard elsewhere where people aren't as aware so he will get a fair trial. So I hope it is a matter of building a big case against him.

Regarding releasing Libby's body I'm not sure how her parents will ever recover or get closure. I think if it was me - getting justice and protecting others would be more important to me than a funeral even though that would rank highly. But hopefully I'll never have to put my opinion to the test.

Given her poor body has been in water and through a post mortem and who knows what other nightmares - I can't begin to imagine what they're feeling about getting it back.

I don't think he'll totally walk free because I think they will have enough for something. But I do think Libby needs full justice so I sincerely hope they can charge him.

 

[Skigh]

Thank you for the information about the difference between manslaughter and murder.
I think even if charged with murder PR will try and claim manslaughter .
I can see the police wanting to try and get every shred of evidence they can to make their case 100% watertight.

I hope that Libby's family are being told more information than we are about why PR had nos yet been arrested.

 

[Newthoughts]

Thank you for the information about the difference between manslaughter and murder.
I think even if charged with murder PR will try and claim manslaughter .
I can see the police wanting to try and get every shread of evidence they can to make their case 100% watertight.

I hope that Libby's family are being told more information than we are about why PR had not yet been arrested.

Or indeed why he hadn't been arrested before that night for his other crimes.

 

[Skigh]

Or indeed why he hadn't been arrested before that night for his other crimes.

I do not think PR's crimes were considered high priority for an over stretched police force.
Once he had his DNA taken they could match him to the crimes where he left evidence.
I hope they have many more they can link him to.