UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[Ruthbullock]

Me too.

Today Mr HKP said wow, it's 20 past one already.. When I looked at the same clock on the oven, it was actually 13:28. He misread the 8 for a zero. It is easily done.

It’s very easily done, in fact we did it yesterday- we sent meter readings to the electric company and they 244156- yaaayyy good news we were due so much money back as we moved companies. Except we weren’t the 4 was at the wrong angle and we spotted they had misread it and it was 9. The only way a 4 could be misread is as a 9 on a digital clock (not a phone, but he looked as he received the text, I would look at the clock before waking up and adjusting my eyes to read the text on my phone)- let’s not even go down the rabbit hole of the clock being misread as 12.19

 

[Zazie]

I am surprised to find I'm agreeing with the defence that there is a good chance these were coincidental animal cries because:

- no witnesses report hearing a single recognisable human word such as 'help';
- January is prime fox mating season (apologies, don't intend to revisit Foxgate, but I have foxes living at the back of my garden and eerie cries with long gaps inbetween fit the bill);
- 15 minutes seems a long time for a predator to permit a victim to cry for help within earshot of houses.
- Libby makes no noise around Oak Road and PR's car.

 

[JosieJo]

Do you think then that the woman heard screaming was Libby while being raped? (OMG I am horrified of writing this let alone thinking it. This beautiful young girl. ) If so, why would she get quiet afterwards?

She died ?
She was unconscious ?
Or she stopped screaming when he ran off

 

[Ruthbullock]

Me too.
And this............
"The screaming was heard some 10-15 minutes after Relowicz left Oak Road.
But Mr Brewster admits he is not sure they were the screams of a woman.
Mr Wright said: “So far as what you actually heard is concerned, was there a bit of a dispute? You thought you had a screech or a scream from an animal and it was Hannah that said she thought it was a woman.
"You weren’t fully convinced and dismissed it as more of a cry from an animal and went on to say in your statement that even when you read about Libby you thought you could be wasting people’s time as you wasn’t sure it was a woman, is that right?”
Mr Brewster has confirmed this."

ETA Link..........
Pawel Relowicz returns to witness stand as week two of trial ends

We could go round and round on this

Thanks- so the screaming you refer to is the ones the defences witness heard at 12.30

 

[JosieJo]

Agree.
But I think PR was not sure whether he'd left her alive or not and that's why he went back.
JMO.

This is the problem i feel he could have checked and moved her to the river or found her not where he left her...again the 4.5 minutes he was there is again tight

 

[ChiCubs2016]

It’s very easily done, in fact we did it yesterday- we sent meter readings to the electric company and they 244156- yaaayyy good news we were due so much money back as we moved companies. Except we weren’t the 4 was at the wrong angle and we spotted they had misread it and it was 9. The only way a 4 could be misread is as a 9 on a digital clock (not a phone, but he looked as he received the text, I would look at the clock before waking up and adjusting my eyes to read the text on my phone)- let’s not even go down the rabbit hole of the clock being misread as 12.19

I am not suggesting the clock was misread. I am saying when you are just going by hearing something or seeing something without having a stopwatch or timer, you can under/over estimate the time. I think hearing someone screaming can be stressful and it may seem longer than you realize. MOO

 

[Ruthbullock]

Timing is really hard to measure. For instance, my hubby and I were on the same phone call. One of the people we were talking to is a talker! She yaps on and on. At one point my hubby whispered, “she has been talking for at least 6- 7 minutes”. It was less than 2! I know this is different than hearing someone scream but I can see how timing can be off. MOO

I agree, but I think when he was making his statement the police would have questioned him over how definite he was with timings and he could have been questioned in court (but it wouldn’t have helped the prosecution)

 

[Cherwell]

If PR left her by the entrance to the park, it is not exactly 'residential'. It is a tenfoot at the back of an estate not a well lit street with houses on either side .........

......... witnesses have given evidence of screaming during the time PR was in the tenfoot but also after the time that PR is confirmed to have left the vicinity. I am not disregarding it or minimising it.

Just for accuracy, no one has claimed that anything happened in the tenfoot. Oak Road is parallel to the tenfoot at the back of Claremont Avenue, but entirely separate.

 

[Steve2021]

Some may find it easier on the Hull site but anytime I look I cannot find what I am looking for.

Too right, it's hopeless trying to find anything on there. There's no order to it.

On a lighter note...Reminds me of a story my dad told me when he was listening to a case in court once. One of the barristers was making a complete hash of it and the judge cut him down with something like, Mr Smith it would be helpful if you could present your case in some sort of order. Chronological would be the usual, but alphabetical would be better than nothing!

 

[tigerowl]

Just for accuracy, no one has claimed that anything happened in the tenfoot. Oak Road is parallel to the tenfoot at the back of Claremont Avenue, but entirely separate.

Sorry, I say tenfoot because although you are right, technically it is Oak Road, that area is more like a tenfoot than a road. More of track that leads away from the houses.

 

[sundaaaay]

I agree with that scenario being a real possibility, her screams taking place once she realised he wasn’t finished with her with some form of scrap taking place on the riverbank when she managed to dig her nails into his face. She was landlocked with the lake on one side, walls on the other and the river. The last scream may have been her being in the river and he’s already running out of ORPF. He maybe returns to see if she’s visible as the tide gets higher. In fact I’m convinced his return is to do with the tide.

 

[Steve2021]

I agree, but I think when he was making his statement the police would have questioned him over how definite he was with timings and he could have been questioned in court (but it wouldn’t have helped the prosecution)

I expect he was questioned in court heavily by one or other side, it's just like so much else we've only had reported a fraction of what went on. I hesitate to even say we've had the edited highlights because that would suggest we've heard all the significant stuff, and I doubt the reporters have time to appraise its relative significance.

I am surprised to find I'm agreeing with the defence that there is a good chance these were coincidental animal cries because:

- no witnesses report hearing a single recognisable human word such as 'help';ar.

Not sure what conclusions I'd draw but have to admit I hadn't thought of that, good point, i should have and it merits consideration. I don't recall anyone else mentioning it.

 

[Jarvis1969]

Respectfully snipped by me.


....left her safe and well, she must have just fallen in the river, that's her bad luck, hardly his fault, he's not her dad, he's not responsible for her,

I wonder if PR said something very similar to his barrister when discussing his case.

Ok, I have gone back on the threads as I was told that it was the poster above this thread, still cant see it? Can maybe someone explain - thanks

 

[Loobyloo]

Empty post, sorry.

 

[sundaaaay]

I always think of Colonel Russell (Williams?) when I think of PR’s prior offending, they are very similar in their voyeurism and calling cards etc. Colonel Russell also went on to rape and kill.

Also like the Golden State Killer who was prolific with stealing women’s underwear. PR’s crimes are very gutsy, and there is an article on the MSM listing some of his other crimes in the area.

 

[Jarvis1969]

Ok, I have gone back on the threads as I was told that it was the poster above this thread, still cant see it? Can maybe someone explain - thanks

 

[Loobyloo]

I am surprised that the jury weren't taken to the area of ORPF. I have known seemingly less important site visits in other serious trials.
It is interesting to me, that most local folk with a knowledge of the park, if not thinking its impossible do indeed have some trouble or doubts over the time scales.
I don't doubt the jury will find him guilty on both counts and as I have said many times I DO believe he is overall responsible for her death, I just haven't seen anything that makes me sure that those timescales can work due to the distance and terrain involved, it still seems too quick. Moo

Perhaps the reason there was no site visit was to do with the restrictions around travel while everywhere is on lockdown? They would have had to travel from Sheffield to Hull & back, which could be awkward for individual jurors, & social distancing would mean they couldn't simply all cram into a minibus.

ETA On the other hand they did bring witnesses over from Hull in a minibus on day 3 (I think - HDM times/dates are hard to follow): Pawel Relowicz court updates as butcher stands trial for Libby murder

 

[elliefant]

@Jarvis1969
It means these 2 posts follow each other. I’ve bolded the bit in the preceding post that @Skigh then references

Also picking up on one of MrJitty's recent posts, for the defence to put it to the jury, you've heard my client's evidence, firstly the sex was initiated by Libby, secondly there is insufficient evidence to conclude he didn't reasonably believe she had the legal capacity to consent, thirdly the sex took place by the side of the road....but on the other hand if you conclude that's a complete pack of lies try this one, he raped her in the park but left her safe and well, she must have just fallen in the river, that's her bad luck, hardly his fault, he's not her dad, he's not responsible for her, you might feel him a tad ungallant, or even morally reprehensible, but that doesn't make him a murderer. How well is that going to go down? Moreso as his evidence is the polar opposite to this I do wonder whether as a matter of law they are permitted to advance this totally unsupported speculation, and whether the jury are permitted to consider it?

Respectfully snipped by me.


....left her safe and well, she must have just fallen in the river, that's her bad luck, hardly his fault, he's not her dad, he's not responsible for her,

I wonder if PR said something very similar to his barrister when discussing his case.

eta: If your initial query was which trial participant said this, none as far as I know - it appears to be a scenario from Steve2021

 

[Loobyloo]

<snipped for focus>
If after having hours to think in the bath ...why leave the condom on the street? If he wanted to try and do anything with that condom why not place it near the park? It would help him try and show consensual sex

I think that's perhaps related to his tendency to adjust his story to fit the facts. He didn't come up with the consensual sex version until after he'd been confronted with the DNA evidence, which indicated no use of condom (& anyway the condom had been found well before he was admitting any sexual contact).

 

[Loobyloo]

Thanks, Josie! Meanwhile I went back to an early thread and found this post:


WITNESS STATEMENTS

@12.15 through 12.30
Male witness who lives in house overlooking fields: “I woke at about quarter past 12 and there was a scream. It sounded like a woman’s scream towards the back of the park, where the river bank and pond is. Then 30 seconds later there was another scream. She must have screamed seven or eight times. All of the screams had gaps between them. The screams must have gone on for about 15 minutes. “They sounded eerie, they sounded dark. Then I saw a male running."
Girl heard screaming in park just minutes after Libby Squire vanished
Same witness' father: "My son heard the screaming - he heard about six or seven screams - and he went to look out of the window. He said it sounded like he was moving. It was intermittent. The man he saw wasn't dressed for a night out. He wasn't dressed for the weather. He saw him running for around 40 yards, sprinting at times. He said he was on his own and he wasn’t looking back."
Libby Squire: Police examining CCTV footage which may show missing student

So it was Sam’s father who mentioned the “screams were moving” bit. Thought I was going a bit loopy!

Moving from where to where?

Highlighted in red: So this is where the idea of mystery man running comes from. I wonder why the witness backed off that version & specified that it was only a fast walk?