UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[Dotta]

14:12
Witness never called the police when hearing screams

The trial has resumed.

Sam Alford, who lived next to Oak Road playing fields preocously said he heard a woman's screams near the River Hull in the playing fields.

But Mr Saxby says they never prompted Mr Alford to take further action.

He said: "“Let me start with Sam Alford and can I begin with the screams but ignore the timings for the moment? Let’s assume they were in that seven and a half minute window and assume they were Libby Squire.

“As he described them do they fit with the prosecution’s theory that this was Pawel Relowicz raping and killing Libby Squire. He said there were a number of them - five or six. Each, he said, was 30 seconds to a minute apart. Desperate was the word he used.

“These screams did not cause Sam Alford to go out and have a look or cause him to call the police even after he saw a man. I invite you to analyse them, desperate not frightened or terror-stricken or other descriptions you might put with someone being attacked."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

I don't understand why witnesses' names are put in full instead of just initials. I would be horrified if my name was posted all over the country. In Poland even the defendants' names are just name and the first letter of surname. It might scare people to give testimony. I am really surprised.

 

[Alyce]

I think ( hope ) he's done. They're on a break until 15.20

 

[Alyce]

dbm

 

[Newthoughts]

Hi, I'm pretty sure last night someone linked to that article...might have been in the Express. It was a report of what SA saw but seemed rather different to his police statement and court evidence.

Which Express. If the national paper the Daily Express it's one of the actual worse and most dishonest papers in the UK.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I am curious what the Websleuthers who do not think or are on the fence as to whether PR murdered Libby think after hearing the defense. I think most of us agree with rape but I think we have many who do not agree with murdered. Has the defense changed your thoughts? I am not suggesting anyone is wrong in their thinking. Just wondering because I feel the jurors may also be a mix like us. Has the defense provided enough doubt? Have they changed anyone’s mind either way?
Edit: spelling

 

[Chambo1994]

Just want to add in here, there seems to be a very basic / old fashioned view of depression and suicide among some of the posts in this thread.

I do not personally believe LS did commit suicide.

However the notion suggested that a suicidal person “wouldn’t go out to party” is completely and utterly wrong. Some of the happiest people you know could be suffering with depression and suicidal thoughts.

Depression is a silent killer and there are no set mannerisms to the illness that someone has to follow.

 

[tedtink]

Oh well.
I've learnt a valuable life lesson today.
Don't go out for a night drinking with mates unless you've got a clean bill of mental health.
Expect the general public to look after you completely otherwise you may end up dead. {sarc}

Poor, poor Libby.

 

[Steve2021]

Wow, if that's all Mr Saxby has got to say I'm astonished. I really really hope it is. If so he's left PR under the bus on the rape, and if that's all he's got on the murder he must think it's pretty hopeless. If I were him I'd be forensically and mathematicaly taking the jury through all possible scenarios and timings. If he doesn't I can only imagine the details of the witness evidence we haven't seen reported is completely against him.

 

[Steve2021]

I am curious what the Websleuthers who do not think or are on the fence as to whether PR murdered Libby think after hearing the defense. I think most of us agree with rape but I think we have many who do not agree with murdered. Has the defense changed your thoughts? I am not suggesting anyone is wrong in their thinking. Just wondering because I feel the jurors may also be a mix like us. Has the defense provided enough doubt? Have they changed anyone’s mind either way?
Edit: spelling

I quite agree, I thought a hung jury probable on the murder and no retrial. But if Mr Saxby isn't coming back with more I think PR is done for. And whilst I wouldn't say I was certain before I'm now thinking if that's all he's got to say, guilty.

 

[Vermont24]

You'd imagine it wouldn't be the case, but now it feels like the Mauri CCTV footage could be taken from the only camera with a view of the river bank. Surely not?

 

[Newthoughts]

Wow, if that's all Mr Saxby has got to say I'm astonished. I really really hope it is. If so he's left PR under the bus on the rape, and if that's all he's got on the murder he must think it's pretty hopeless. If I were him I'd be forensically and mathematicaly taking the jury through all possible scenarios and timings. If he doesn't I can only imagine the details of the witness evidence we haven't seen reported is completely against him.

I must admit I was expecting something more detailed unless a lot has been missed.

The ratio of time spent on Libby's mental health and PRs naive lying about everything except that night compared to details of that night was the opposite of what I expected.

 

[DanCJ]

I think it's over for PR.

 

[Sarahjo]

I am curious what the Websleuthers who do not think or are on the fence as to whether PR murdered Libby think after hearing the defense. I think most of us agree with rape but I think we have many who do not agree with murdered. Has the defense changed your thoughts? I am not suggesting anyone is wrong in their thinking. Just wondering because I feel the jurors may also be a mix like us. Has the defense provided enough doubt? Have they changed anyone’s mind either way?
Edit: spelling

I think it’s the same doubt that’s always been there, there’s no evidence to say he did murder her, rape he is 100% guilty but then what happened, did he kill her and throw her in the river? Maybe.. did she run away from him and fall in the river? Maybe, both those would then be his fault so guilty of murder but did he leave her on the road and she wandered to the river and fell in? Also maybe. In which case innocent of murder (in the legal sense, not the moral sense) to me all these scenarios are possibilities and none of them conclusive.

The 12.30 scream time is the biggest issue here.. it’s doubt because it’s agreed fact he left the area at 12.19 so who was screaming at 12.30 if LS was already dead?

Edited to add - the defence haven’t provided any more or any less doubt, just what was always there for me.. I really don’t consider her mental health or suicidal thoughts had any bearing on this, I really don’t think suicide is even remotely something to have considered happened.

 

[Alyce]

Wow, if that's all Mr Saxby has got to say I'm astonished. I really really hope it is. If so he's left PR under the bus on the rape, and if that's all he's got on the murder he must think it's pretty hopeless. If I were him I'd be forensically and mathematicaly taking the jury through all possible scenarios and timings. If he doesn't I can only imagine the details of the witness evidence we haven't seen reported is completely against him.

I don't know if he's finished, I just hope he has. I was basing my assumption on the fact that we were told this morning it would be Defence closing plus some of Judge's summing up today. We have an hour or so left for Judge to do this. Plus Mr Saxby's final line sounded like an ending, as he invited the Jury to consider that Libby died by misadventure.

 

[jamjim]

15:26
Judge gives jury legal directions

Justice Lambert says she is going to remind the jury of the main aspects of evidence of the case.

She says: “It is your judgement on the facts that matter, not mine. The facts are for you and you alone.

“When you are considering the evidence you should bring your experience of the world and common sense.

"You are able to draw inferences from the evidence. You will reach your verdicts based on all of the evidence in this case."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[Zazie]

“When you are considering the evidence you should bring your experience of the world and common sense. You are able to draw inferences from the evidence. You will reach your verdicts based on all of the evidence in this case."

Wee nudge by the judge towards the prosecution's version there surely, with that mention of common sense and inference?

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I am curious what the Websleuthers who do not think or are on the fence as to whether PR murdered Libby think after hearing the defense. I think most of us agree with rape but I think we have many who do not agree with murdered. Has the defense changed your thoughts? I am not suggesting anyone is wrong in their thinking. Just wondering because I feel the jurors may also be a mix like us. Has the defense provided enough doubt? Have they changed anyone’s mind either way?
Edit: spelling

Almost afraid to comment as it seems many are beyond convinced and I may be lynched for having an alternative opinion.

I think the defence did a good job, he highlighted points that I wasn't aware if or that had only been very briefly mentioned. For me now besides the issues of timings, defence barrister certainly raised enough doubts that I would be likely to say Guilty of Rape but Not Guilty of murder.

Sorry as much as I am aware this is a highly unpopular opinion and extremely unpalatable to hear, the information raised with regard to Libbys mental state and frame of mind both on that night and before could absolutely be relevant and there is nothing that convinces me we can be sure at all what actually transpired that night.
We can be sure he's a pervert and his intentions towards libby were far from honourable but for me that is all I can be sure on.

Before the trial I would have had him guilty of murder without hearing the evidence, the idea of her simply falling into the river was preposterous to me, hearing the evidence however I sadly feel it cannot be proven to be at PRs hand.

 

[tedtink]

“When you are considering the evidence you should bring your experience of the world and common sense. You are able to draw inferences from the evidence. You will reach your verdicts based on all of the evidence in this case."

Wee nudge by the judge towards the prosecution's version there surely, with that mention of common sense and inference?

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

I thought that too, then thought 'common sense' in it's literal translation is 'sound judgment' either way, it sounded like a nod.

 

[HollyHunter9]

15:26
Judge gives jury legal directions

Justice Lambert says she is going to remind the jury of the main aspects of evidence of the case.

“When you are considering the evidence you should bring your experience of the world and common sense.


Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

RSMBM ~ I find it quite telling that the judge is using similar wording to the prosecution ~ "use your experience of the world and common sense."

 

[jamjim]

15:34
Jury told to take all the evidence into account

Justice Lambert tells the jury that no one piece of eivdence on its own can prove Relowicz's guilt but they must decide whether together it does.

She said: "As Mr Wright [proecution barrister] made plain to you the prosecution relies on that which means different strands of evidence, no one of which proves Mr Relowicz is guilty but the prosecution says together proves their case.

“The fact his semen was found in her vagina, Libby Squire’s condition, her being drunk, cold and upset, the unlikelihood of him wanting to help her given what he has accepted he was about that night, Mr Alford’s evidence, Pawel Relowicz’s lies and what we have also been told about him being seuxall charged that night.

“For murder, they say he raped her so had a motive to silence her and his return to the scene after.

“The defence say even though Libby was cold, drunk and upset she was capable of giving consent and she did so, they rely on Mr Jacobs' evidence and Pawel Relowcz.

“When you are deliberating this case what you must do is examine each of the strands of circumstantial evidence and decide which event you accept and which you don’t and which reasonable conclusions you can think of of those you do accept.

“It is for you to decide whether the prosecution made you sure Pawel Relowicz is guilty of rape and murder.

“When you reach a verdict you must do so on each count.”

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement