Deceased/Not Found UK - Margaret Fleming, 19, Inverclyde, Scotland, 17 Dec 1999 *Guilty*

[CoverMeCagney]

A couple of random rambles:

I'm not sure what I think about the Scottish "not proven" verdict option. On one hand it gives more chance for someone to get away with murder. On the other hand, in the absence of damning evidence, it basically means (to me) that the judge is quite sure they did it and the public will forever know there is a big question mark hanging over the perpetrator.

Secondly, I really want to know how they have ascertained that Margaret was murdered, as opposed to dying by manslaughter or negligence. I wasn't sure a murder charge would stick.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the verdict today has Avril running to her solicitor wanting to squeal everything she knows.

Finally, I would love to see a docu about this case, it's been fascinating and unusual and we've just not had enough coverage of the trial!!

 

[Tortoise]

My opinion is that murder was the correct charge. This is because the couple was clearly lying about her still being alive. They had the option of coming clean which would mean pleading guilty to lesser charges - manslaughter or negligence. The fact they didn't means they risked being found guilty by their made up stories and offering no truthful defence to the murder charge.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

My opinion is that murder was the correct charge. This is because the couple was clearly lying about her still being alive. They had the option of coming clean which would mean pleading guilty to lesser charges - manslaughter or negligence. The fact they didn't means they risked being found guilty by their made up stories and offering no truthful defence to the murder charge.

I think you're probably right, Tortoise. You'd think once they knew it was a murder charge they'd have crumbled then (if they didn't murder her).

I doubt this is the end of it. I think there'll be appeals and I think they'll turn on each other now. Cairney is far too pig-headed (and big-headed) to let it lie.

I tried to find an image of The Twits in prison but couldn't, so we'll just have to imagine it ourselves!!

 

[Keine Engel]

A couple of random rambles.
Secondly, I really want to know how they have ascertained that Margaret was murdered, as opposed to dying by manslaughter or negligence. I wasn't sure a murder charge would stick.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the verdict today has Avril running to her solicitor wanting to squeal everything she knows.

Finally, I would love to see a docu about this case, it's been fascinating and unusual and we've just not had enough coverage of the trial!!

I think possibly if it had been an accident or thru neglect they've had more than enough chances to explain, the devious behaviour, the planning involved with the fraud(s), cover up of Margaret being 'miss ing' and the downright lies along with their attitudes, prove whatever happened to Margaret was 'beneficial' to them.
That, I think is what makes the charge(s) lean towards Murder in my opinion.

Wherever you may be Margaret I hope you can now rest peacefully ♡

 

[Taskforce88]

Brilliant news!

 

[lizziginne]

So happy to see this outcome!
I’m sorry the system failed you Margaret

 

[Antonia]

I think possibly if it had been an accident or thru neglect they've had more than enough chances to explain, the devious behaviour, the planning involved with the fraud(s), cover up of Margaret being 'miss ing' and the downright lies along with their attitudes, prove whatever happened to Margaret was 'beneficial' to them.
That, I think is what makes the charge(s) lean towards Murder in my opinion.

Wherever you may be Margaret I hope you can now rest peacefully ♡

I agree. Even if AJ has been the subject of coercive control by EC (which is possible, even probable), I would have thought she could/would/should have talked sooner (and it should have been safe for her to do so).

I've always felt that EC is more culpable than AJ, but the fact that she has still not told the truth makes me think that she was deliberately holding back in the hope of a 'not guilty' or 'not proven' verdict so that they could go on to make more money out of whatever story they were going to spin.

The expression on AJ's face at the end of the BBC video really made me think she would come clean at some point, maybe she will.
BBC News - Scotland, Margaret Fleming's carers speak for first time

 

[Keine Engel]

The expression on AJ's face at the end of the BBC video really made me think she would come clean at some point, maybe she will.

I have no doubt she will try every trick in the book to save her own neck now
Whether or not it's the truth thou ... ???

 

[Tortoise]

I think you're probably right, Tortoise. You'd think once they knew it was a murder charge they'd have crumbled then (if they didn't murder her).

I doubt this is the end of it. I think there'll be appeals and I think they'll turn on each other now. Cairney is far too pig-headed (and big-headed) to let it lie.

I tried to find an image of The Twits in prison but couldn't, so we'll just have to imagine it ourselves!!

If there was a body they would have to put up a defence to explain why they weren't culpable - the fact they hid the body is no different, imo.

 

[tresir2012]

I think they should be held jointly liable for both crimes (murder and fraud). Surely it is obvious to most people that Margaret is dead, EC and AJ both know she is dead, and they have acted together for years pretending that she's alive so that they can claim her benefits. They should both go to prison for a long time.

ITA. Even if she is alive (which I don't believe) why should they receive her benefits if she is "in London" anyway? They're not providing or caring for her. She should claim them for herself. It's ludicrous BS they are peddling.

 

[tresir2012]

But a jury at the High Court in Glasgow found Cairney and Jones guilty of murder after a seven-week trial.

Jones was also found guilty of fraudulently claiming £182,000 in benefits by pretending that Ms Fleming was alive.
Carers guilty of murdering missing teenager

Just read the result
Justice for Margaret at last. Majority too.

 

[tresir2012]

Good.

I wasn't sure which way they would go as they could have easily went for not proven and I would've understood why. I think they might've gone that way had he not took the stand and blathered a load of rubbish.

Calling the prosecution QC a clown and Margaret's dead father a louse probably helped the case too.

 

[tresir2012]

The teenager who was forgotten for 17 years

Has this been posted?

An article about Margaret.

 

[Legally Bland]

The teenager who was forgotten for 17 years

Has this been posted?

An article about Margaret.

Thanks, that's a good recap. I can't remember seeing any of these pics before today.

The difference between the March 1999 pic (with grandparents maybe?) and the ones with AJ & EC less than a year later is so telling.

 

[mumofboys93]

Haven’t stopped thinking about this case all day and have read almost every article reported on Margaret.
I feel sick to my stomach that EC and AJ could torture, imprison and steal from a vulnerable teenager like Margaret. To abuse her, spend her benefits and get away with it all for nearly 20 years.
About how there were many red flags that could have been acted upon and things may have been different.
And most of all, that they have gave up the bare minimum information, meaning Margaret cannot be laid to rest properly nor for her to be mourned and remembered the way she deserves.
Rest in peace Margaret, where ever you are. Justice has been served, now let’s hope that evil pair get a decent sentence and spend every last day in prison, looking over their shoulders.

 

[Legally Bland]

Thanks, that's a good recap. I can't remember seeing any of these pics before today.

The difference between the March 1999 pic (with grandparents maybe?) and the ones with AJ & EC less than a year later is so telling.

View attachment 188941 View attachment 188942 View attachment 188943 View attachment 188944

I've just realised the March pic says 'last known picture of Margaret'.

That has to be the last pic they can definitely date. I don't believe the pics with A&E predate it.

 

[Antonia]

...
Also, the benefit fraud aspect is worthy of a Panorama or Dispatches (if not government or police) investigation on how it was possible for so long and are there any other similar cases.

Just read this in updated BBC article (photos, videos and small amount of text added since I read it at lunchtime):

"Inverclyde Council said it was asked by the procurator fiscal not to carry out an investigation before the trial concluded.

A spokesman said: "Inverclyde's multi-agency public protection committees will now work with all the organisations involved in Margaret's case on a full, detailed examination of the events leading up to her tragic death." "
Carers guilty of murdering missing teenager

So the various failures to protect Margaret will be investigated; I wish I could be confident that they will be fixed so that other vulnerable people are properly protected.

 

[Tortoise]

The evil pair did not show any emotion yesterday at the High Court in Glasgow after being convicted of the callous crime.

[...]

Following the jury’s verdicts after a six-week-long trial, Cairney – who had been on bail – was taken down to the cells in his wheelchair.

Jones – who deliberately got herself remanded before the trial after calling police to admit she was breaking her own bail conditions – needed her crutches to help her as she was led away by guards.

[...]

Sentencing on the pair was postponed for reports.

Margaret Fleming: Her callous killers face dying behind bars

 

[Al Ka]

I am so pleased to hear unexpected Guilty verdict. Some justice finally for Margaret. Hope their sentencing will be equally tough too.

I noticed one journalist that was on the stand said there were 5 film cameras in the court room so I expect we will get to see more of this court case at some point in one form or another.

It seems finally All media exploded with Margaret case in last two days. It is covered by every media outlet. And further:

BBC crews given permission to film Margaret Fleming murder trial
BBC filmed Margaret Fleming murder trial for documentary

 

[Taskforce88]

Haven’t stopped thinking about this case all day and have read almost every article reported on Margaret.
I feel sick to my stomach that EC and AJ could torture, imprison and steal from a vulnerable teenager like Margaret. To abuse her, spend her benefits and get away with it all for nearly 20 years.
About how there were many red flags that could have been acted upon and things may have been different.
And most of all, that they have gave up the bare minimum information, meaning Margaret cannot be laid to rest properly nor for her to be mourned and remembered the way she deserves.
Rest in peace Margaret, where ever you are. Justice has been served, now let’s hope that evil pair get a decent sentence and spend every last day in prison, looking over their shoulders.

I believe her body was destroyed and the remains buried in the garden.