UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

[Marantz4250b]

I've been thinking a lot lately that if someone swears that they are innocent, and if there is no absolute proof of their guilt, maybe nobody but that person will ever know the real truth. Because we have no way of seeing into another person's mind. If only they could create some kind of lie detector that really works.

This is precisely the point I've made several times regarding the attempted murder charges. When this all started I was fairly stunned at the sheer number of them because attempted murder is a very difficult thing to prove, much more so than murder as an intent to kill is not required; it is necessary that the accused intended that death would occur and that is exceptionally difficult to prove without extremely compelling evidence. That intention is not required for murder.

 

[Marantz4250b]

DBM. Duplicate!

 

[WaxLyrical]

I've been thinking a lot lately that if someone swears that they are innocent, and if there is no absolute proof of their guilt, maybe nobody but that person will ever know the real truth. Because we have no way of seeing into another person's mind. If only they could create some kind of lie detector that really works.

I’m in Scotland and there’s a case here when a young lad was convicted of violently murdering his girlfriend when he was 14. Happened 20 years ago. No forensic evidence linking him to it. He could be released but is now facing an open ended sentence because he maintains he’s innocence. Never have I wanted to see into another person’s mind so much!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Urgh....duplicate again!

 

[marynnu]

This is precisely the point I've made several times regarding the attempted murder charges. When this all started I was fairly stunned at the sheer number of them because attempted murder is a very difficult thing to prove, much more so than murder as an intent to kill is not required; it is necessary that the accused intended that death would occur and that is exceptionally difficult to prove without extremely compelling evidence. That intention is not required for murder.

I'm quite surprised they're attempted murder charges, rather than assault.

 

[marynnu]

dbm

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

im not sure about dr evans testimony about cpr not causing injuries. I worked on a icu for two months in a clerical role and witnessed a elderly lady have her ribs broken in cpr. thought it was common knowledge that it’s possible. I’m not sure of differences between a quite elderly person and a neonate though. Was very vigorous cpr. Can’t say but no idea on how strong or flexible a neonates bones are. thinking if a rib is more flexible than otherwise it’s movement in cpr might damage the liver as it’s quite big ad close to the ribs.

Babies' bones are still mostly cartilage. They don't get the kinds of injuries that adults do with CPR. Never heard of liver trauma from CPR on a newborn, and if it was even a remotely regular possibility, it's the kind of thing we'd be briefed on so we could watch for it.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm quite surprised they're attempted murder charges, rather than assault.

It's because there were seven deaths.

Intention can be inferred from the circumstances. In other words, the deaths - if intentional - are circumstances which can be used to answer the question of intent for the attempted murder allegations.

Even if I picked up an empty gun, thinking it was loaded, aimed it at someone and pulled the trigger, that would be attempted murder, because of intention, not outcome.

JMO

 

[Marie Bell]

im not sure about dr evans testimony about cpr not causing injuries. I worked on a icu for two months in a clerical role and witnessed a elderly lady have her ribs broken in cpr. thought it was common knowledge that it’s possible. I’m not sure of differences between a quite elderly person and a neonate though. Was very vigorous cpr. Can’t say but no idea on how strong or flexible a neonates bones are. thinking if a rib is more flexible than otherwise it’s movement in cpr might damage the liver as it’s quite big ad close to the ribs.

I won't be surprised if the defence closing speech makes some reference to the testimony "a competent doctor performing cpr on a neonate would ensure the liver area wasn't .affected" and says something like 'even competent doctors make mistakes. Such as giving too high a dose of adrenalin for instance'

 

[Tortoise]

I won't be surprised if the defence closing speech makes some reference to the testimony "a competent doctor performing cpr on a neonate would ensure the liver area wasn't .affected" and says something like 'even competent doctors make mistakes. Such as giving too high a dose of adrenalin for instance'

I've never seen CPR being performed on a baby, but just the sound of using thumbs and fingers on the heart makes me wonder how on earth that could cause multiple areas of damage to the liver and free blood in the peritoneal cavity.

 

[marynnu]

I've never seen CPR being performed on a baby, but just the sound of using thumbs and fingers on the heart makes me wonder how on earth that could cause multiple areas of damage to the liver and free blood in the peritoneal cavity.

Exactly. It just doesn't.

 

[marynnu]

It's because there were seven deaths.

Intention can be inferred from the circumstances. In other words, the deaths - if intentional - are circumstances which can be used to answer the question of intent for the attempted murder allegations.

Even if I picked up an empty gun, thinking it was loaded, aimed it at someone and pulled the trigger, that would be attempted murder, because of intention, not outcome.

JMO

I get the point about the gun. I suppose I was thinking more along the lines of if someone threw a punch in order to hurt the victim, not to kill them.

 

[Tortoise]

I get the point about the gun. I suppose I was thinking more along the lines of if someone threw a punch in order to hurt the victim, not to kill them.

yes, that would have to be viewed in its own set of circumstances. If the same person had killed seven people in a year by punching them, that might be a whole different matter. The jury will have to first decide whether the babies that died were murders or natural deaths, IMO.

 

[Anxala]

So LL has been on remand since Nov 2020. It's a long time. Does anyone know if bail was ever applied for? Or was it denied by the court on the 'evidence presented / risk of flight/ risk from others/ risk to herself' basis? I can't seem to find a definitive answer from google.

<modsnip>

 

[Marie Bell]

I've never seen CPR being performed on a baby, but just the sound of using thumbs and fingers on the heart makes me wonder how on earth that could cause multiple areas of damage to the liver and free blood in the peritoneal cavity.

I'm not saying that it will be a persuasive suggestion, but it's still one which the defence might make; bundling it up with the other examples of mistakes and errors that were agreed by the prosecution.

 

[ColourPurple]

So LL has been on remand since Nov 2020. It's a long time. Does anyone know if bail was ever applied for? Or was it denied by the court on the 'evidence presented / risk of flight/ risk from others/ risk to herself' basis? I can't seem to find a definitive answer from google.

<modsnip>

A NURSE from Hereford accused of the murders of eight babies in an alleged year-long killing spree at a hospital neonatal unit has been refused bail.

The defendant waved to her parents sitting in the public gallery as she came into and left court during brief adjournments.

Her father mouthed “I love you” back to her.

Judge Steven Everett, Honorary Recorder of Chester, imposed an order banning any information that could lead to the identification of witnesses and thereby prohibiting further publication of the names of the babies allegedly murdered by Letby.

Ben Myers QC, representing Letby, made the application for bail, which was held in private and the press benches were cleared of the dozen or so reporters in court.

An hour later press were allowed back into court to hear Judge Everett’s decision to refuse the bail application.

Hereford nurse accused of murdering eight babies refused bail

Lucy Letby appeared at Chester Crown Court in person a day after a virtual appearance in Warrington.

www.herefordtimes.com

 

[Anxala]

^ Thanks for that.

 

[ColourPurple]

Thanks for that.

Bit more info here

She waved to her parents from the dock, mouthing "I love you" as she was remanded in custody after an application for bail was refused.

Her father mouthed "I love you" back to her.

Judge Steven Everett, Honorary Recorder of Chester, said the children had died in "undoubtedly terrible circumstances".

He also acknowledged the families of the alleged victims, who watched the hearing via videolink, had suffered a "truly, truly stressful and traumatic time".

Defence barrister Ben Myers QC said Letby was "very anxious" about the situation and would like it resolved "as soon as possible".

8 babies allegedly murdered by nurse 'died in terrible circumstances'

EIGHT babies allegedly murdered by a nurse died in “undoubtedly terrible circumstances”, a court heard today as she was refused bail. Lucy Letby, 30, was arrested for a third time on Tu…

www.thescottishsun.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

New podcast

‎The Trial of Lucy Letby: The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 24: The Tipping Point on Apple Podcasts

‎Show The Trial of Lucy Letby, Ep The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 24: The Tipping Point - 24 Mar 2023

podcasts.apple.com

 

[esther43]

I won't be surprised if the defence closing speech makes some reference to the testimony "a competent doctor performing cpr on a neonate would ensure the liver area wasn't .affected" and says something like 'even competent doctors make mistakes. Such as giving too high a dose of adrenalin for instance'

I think they were working with the unknown and adrenaline had worked on previous collapses of a similar nature. It's alleged the air bubble blocked the chambers of the heart, so really the amount of adrenaline is not the concern here. It's not as though the adrenalin itself was administered with ill intent.