UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

[Supernovae]

Thanks.

I'm wondering if @Supernovae knows if it was after Dr Evans's review.

Baby killed with injection of air by nurse Letby, medical expert says

Dewi Evans, a leading paediatrician called in by the prosecution, said he could see no evidence that the collapse of Baby O could have been accidental.

www.dailymail.co.uk

'We've heard from the local medical team about the resuscitation they carried out, but the chest compressions didn't get near the liver'.

The paediatrician thought the case mirrored that of Baby B, one of a set of twins, who survived what the prosecution allege was similarly injected with air.

'This was repeating the pattern I'd seen in the second case,' he said. 'It seemed to me that O had been given an injection of air…and I think the injection of air will have caused the final collapse'.

Dr Evans told Nick Johnson KC, prosecuting, he had invited police to ask an expert pathologist to view the available evidence 'and to ask whether, in the pathologist's view, it was likely to be the result of trauma'.

 

[marynnu]

How would such a liver trauma occur without visual bruising on the skin?

No idea, but this is what the expert witness says.

"He said the severity of the injury was more consistent with that suffered in a road-traffic accident, adding: "I have also seen it in babies in the context of cases where they have suffered non-accidental types of injury."

Asked whether medics would have seen Child O in distress as a result of the injury, he said: "It's very common that you see nothing from the outside, especially in a baby.

"You can have the most devastating injury internally and yet nothing is visible from the outside."

 

[Tortoise]

Baby killed with injection of air by nurse Letby, medical expert says

Dewi Evans, a leading paediatrician called in by the prosecution, said he could see no evidence that the collapse of Baby O could have been accidental.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Thanks.

 

[Sundial]

Wasn't she a trainee in Liverpool?
She must have been under constant supervision there, no?

She might have observed such support in cases involved other staff there.

If guilty
I think she started in Chester, where she had opportunity to be alone with patients and was considered a fully trained nurse.

But who really knows?

JMO

Students are supervised but not necessarily “constantly” as such.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Didn’t her neighbours say she had a man coming and going from her house a lot..

Wild speculation but I wonder if it’s Dr Choc. That they stayed close, maybe he believed her that she wasn’t involved.

Might explain the dramatic scene in court when he started giving evidence.

JMO.

 

[ColourPurple]

Jurors were shown post-mortem examination photographs which showed two separate sites of bruising, as well as areas of a blood clot.

Prosecutor Nick Johnson KC asked the consultant: “How does that injury come to be in a child of (Child O’s) age?”

Dr Marnerides, who practises at London’s St Thomas’ Hospital, said: “The distribution, the pattern and the appearance of the bruising indicates towards impact-type injury. I’m fairly confident this is impact-type injury.”

He explained the photograph showed “extensive haemorrhaging into the liver”, which he had only seen previously in a road traffic collision and in non-accidental assaults from parents or carers.

Mr Johnson said: “Looking at this sequence of photographs, can you rule out the possibility that these injuries were caused by CPR?”

Dr Marnerides said: “I cannot convince myself that in the setting of a neonatal unit this would be a reasonable proposition to explain this. I don’t think CPR can produce this extensive injury to a liver.”

Mr Johnson said: “In so far as you have spoken about an impact-type scenario for causing that internal injury, would you necessarily expect to see any outside sign on the skin itself?”

The consultant replied: “You can have the most devastating injury internally and nothing can be observed externally. That is very common.”

Mr Johnson went on: “What in your view was the cause of death of (Child O)?”

Dr Marnerides said: “In my view, the cause of death was inflicted traumatic injury to the liver, profound gastric and intestinal distension following acute excessive injection/infusion of air via a naso-gastric tube and air embolism due to administration into a venous line.”

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-03-29/baby-suffered-liver-injury-akin-to-road-traffic-collision-lucy-letby-trial-told

 

[Tortoise]

deleted by me - duplicate of above post

 

[Sundial]

Didn’t her neighbours say she had a man coming and going from her house a lot..

Wild speculation but I wonder if it’s Dr Choc. That they stayed close, maybe he believed her that she wasn’t involved.

Might explain the dramatic scene in court when he started giving evidence.

JMO.

It’s possible but who knows.

I can’t help but wonder if he was either completely gullible and oblivious to discussions on the unit, she was quite manipulative OR he was actually aware of some of the rumours and keeping her on side. Really can’t figure it out but given her reaction at his name, they must have been close whether by friendship or more.
JMO

 

[Sundial]

Jurors were shown post-mortem examination photographs which showed two separate sites of bruising, as well as areas of a blood clot.

Prosecutor Nick Johnson KC asked the consultant: “How does that injury come to be in a child of (Child O’s) age?”

Dr Marnerides, who practises at London’s St Thomas’ Hospital, said: “The distribution, the pattern and the appearance of the bruising indicates towards impact-type injury. I’m fairly confident this is impact-type injury.”

He explained the photograph showed “extensive haemorrhaging into the liver”, which he had only seen previously in a road traffic collision and in non-accidental assaults from parents or carers.

Mr Johnson said: “Looking at this sequence of photographs, can you rule out the possibility that these injuries were caused by CPR?”

Dr Marnerides said: “I cannot convince myself that in the setting of a neonatal unit this would be a reasonable proposition to explain this. I don’t think CPR can produce this extensive injury to a liver.”

Mr Johnson said: “In so far as you have spoken about an impact-type scenario for causing that internal injury, would you necessarily expect to see any outside sign on the skin itself?”

The consultant replied: “You can have the most devastating injury internally and nothing can be observed externally. That is very common.”

Mr Johnson went on: “What in your view was the cause of death of (Child O)?”

Dr Marnerides said: “In my view, the cause of death was inflicted traumatic injury to the liver, profound gastric and intestinal distension following acute excessive injection/infusion of air via a naso-gastric tube and air embolism due to administration into a venous line.”

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-03-29/baby-suffered-liver-injury-akin-to-road-traffic-collision-lucy-letby-trial-told

I can’t imagine what these parents are feeling and going through; all of the parents in the trial in fact- the jury too. This is quite a harrowing heartbreaking read.

Extensive liver injury seen typically by road accidents, or abuse (whether accidental or not), it was not normal.

Extensive air

The description of his report is quite disturbing and if guilty, I truly hope justice will be found for these families

 

[Popcorn80]

I have stayed away from this case on here due to the fact I knew it would take over my life.

I have kept up to day with podcasts and snippets in the media. IMO Today’s small amount of evidence we have heard, have felt the most positive for the prosecution. As a neonatal nurse with 10 years of experience in a large surgical unit, I can count on less than one hand the babies that have died unexpectedly without reason. Once investigated these small cases have always had a reason.

Well babies even born early don’t just die without warning- I feel the defence will play this as poorly vulnerable patients clinging to life. But in real life this just isn’t true.

 

[Dotta]

I can’t imagine what these parents are feeling and going through; all of the parents in the trial in fact- the jury too. This is quite a harrowing heartbreaking read.

Extensive liver injury seen typically by road accidents, or abuse (whether accidental or not), it was not normal.

Extensive air

The description of his report is quite disturbing and if guilty, I truly hope justice will be found for these families

Re liver injury

IMO it was (allegedly) done in a way to blame resus.

Earlier traumas to Babies' throats looked suspicious, so MO (allegedly) changed.

Somebody was learning fast from one's mistakes.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

I can’t imagine what these parents are feeling and going through; all of the parents in the trial in fact- the jury too. This is quite a harrowing heartbreaking read.

Extensive liver injury seen typically by road accidents, or abuse (whether accidental or not), it was not normal.

Extensive air

The description of his report is quite disturbing and if guilty, I truly hope justice will be found for these families

Yes, if guilty, I think the argument that she didn't want to kill these babies and only wanted the opportunity to be a hero and save them is a massive stretch now.

To allegedly do all this to a tiny 4 pound baby ?

"inflicted traumatic injury to the liver, profound gastric and intestinal distension following acute excessive injection/infusion of air via a naso-gastric tube and air embolism due to administration into a venous line.”

IMO, if guilty etc

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-03-29/baby-suffered-liver-injury-akin-to-road-traffic-collision-lucy-letby-trial-told

 

[marynnu]

I have stayed away from this case on here due to the fact I knew it would take over my life.

I have kept up to day with podcasts and snippets in the media. IMO Today’s small amount of evidence we have heard, have felt the most positive for the prosecution. As a neonatal nurse with 10 years of experience in a large surgical unit, I can count on less than one hand the babies that have died unexpectedly without reason. Once investigated these small cases have always had a reason.

Well babies even born early don’t just die without warning- I feel the defence will play this as poorly vulnerable patients clinging to life. But in real life this just isn’t true.

I totally agree. I worked for many years on NNU , and as you say this just doesn't happen with no explanations with newborns, pre-term or otherwise. You know why it happens, I would say almost 100%.

 

[Sundial]

Yes, if guilty, I think the argument that she didn't want to kill these babies and only wanted the opportunity to be a hero and save them is a massive stretch now.

To allegedly do all this to a tiny 4 pound baby ?

"inflicted traumatic injury to the liver, profound gastric and intestinal distension following acute excessive injection/infusion of air via a naso-gastric tube and air embolism due to administration into a venous line.”

IMO, if guilty etc

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-03-29/baby-suffered-liver-injury-akin-to-road-traffic-collision-lucy-letby-trial-told

Exactly, if guilty, this seems very intentional and quite extreme imo.

 

[DinerMite]

Yes, if guilty, I think the argument that she didn't want to kill these babies and only wanted the opportunity to be a hero and save them is a massive stretch now.

To allegedly do all this to a tiny 4 pound baby ?

"inflicted traumatic injury to the liver, profound gastric and intestinal distension following acute excessive injection/infusion of air via a naso-gastric tube and air embolism due to administration into a venous line.”

IMO, if guilty etc

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-03-29/baby-suffered-liver-injury-akin-to-road-traffic-collision-lucy-letby-trial-told

I agree. It's late so you'll have to excuse the lack of specifics now but it's the fact she allegedly caused complications before ending her shift(s) that tell me it wasn't to play the hero.

 

[Becci]

Mr Johnson said: “In so far as you have spoken about an impact-type scenario for causing that internal injury, would you necessarily expect to see any outside sign on the skin itself?”

The consultant replied: “You can have the most devastating injury internally and nothing can be observed externally. That is very common.”

I'm confused. Pls can someone explain how it wouldn't appear on the outside of the skin given how thin a prem babies skin is? Ty

 

[Tortoise]

Mr Johnson said: “In so far as you have spoken about an impact-type scenario for causing that internal injury, would you necessarily expect to see any outside sign on the skin itself?”

The consultant replied: “You can have the most devastating injury internally and nothing can be observed externally. That is very common.”

I'm confused. Pls can someone explain how it wouldn't appear on the outside of the skin given how thin a prem babies skin is? Ty

I'm imagining for instance the heel of a palm could be placed on the body and pressure applied, impacting internally.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Poor little mite.

 

[Becci]

& the original pathologist what did he say for the bruised liver? Has he discussed it yet.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Re liver injury

IMO it was (allegedly) done in a way to blame resus.

Earlier traumas to Babies' throats looked suspicious, so MO (allegedly) changed.

Somebody was learning fast from one's mistakes.

JMO

That really does seem to be the case, doesn't it? The testimony from Dr. M really underscores how cruel these alleged assaults were. They seem designed to inflict the greatest amount of pain.

JMO.