GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[Officer Dibble]

I think someone said it probably just refers to "Long Day" shift. I can't remember who though, sorry

oh!! Duh!

 

[Officer Dibble]

LD was explained as Long Day and extra iirc was an extra shift she was asked to do.

would have to find relevant post

1:00pm

Another photo of Letby's bedroom is shown, with a wall slogan 'Leave Sparkles wherever you go'. The message is repeated on a small tabletop decoration.
A page from Letby's 2016 diary is shown to the court, with a note on April 8: 'LD [long day] twins'. The following day is 'LD twins resus]. It is followed in a different coloured pen by 'Salsa - Buckley'.
A page of June 20-26 from Letby's diary, has for June 23: 'LD ([name of Child O's initial])'
June 24: 'LD ([name of Child P's initial) A+E'
June 25: 'LD ([name of Child Q's initial)'

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, April 17

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

edited to add link for LD (still looking for extra)

thank you

 

[Dcflag]

I hadn’t really looked at this much before; but if you draw your eyes to the the photo on the right however, something has just caught my eye. Just below the “LD” day.. look at the box/date below it.

This is JMO but looks as though it reads; M 18wk. The only time I have seen something wrote like this is in relation to a pregnancy. There was discussion about M and something which was referred to in court, where M was thanking LL but we weren’t privvy to what that was about. It was very strange but wasn’t touched on further in the evidence (that we heard/read here). Why would you write something like that? There’s only one reason I could think of.

EBM: 26th Sunday
JMO

It says las iguanas - Minna 18.00

Minna is one of her colleagues/friend

 

[Dcflag]

And we know exactly when this falls in the run of things.

Her son was born, weighing just 3lbs 2oz, nine weeks early by emergency C-section at the Countess of Chester Hospital in February 2016, nine months into Letby's killing spree. She was at his birth – her third night shift in a run of four.

The previous night she allegedly tried to murder a baby girl by tampering with her breathing tube. The jury failed to reach a verdict in her case.

Given the date, there's no doubt which child they're talking about. It's Child K.

Nurse Lucy Letby found guilty of seven baby murders and seven attempted murders

Lucy Letby, a former Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal nurse, has been found guilty of murdering and poisoning babies between June 2015 and June…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Count 14 - attempted murder of Child K, a baby girl, on February 17, 2016: NO VERDICT

After Child K, the next child to have a charge presented to the court was Child L, who was attacked on the 9th April.

This baby fits into that gap. He went home at the end of March.

At the end of March 2016, after around five weeks on the unit, their son was well enough to be discharged. Shortly afterwards Letby asked to be friends with the mother on Facebook.

MOO

One of the scariest things for me with this is.. what if she actually tampered with every baby in her care? So when looking at escalations you’re never really going to see the actions that didn’t have consequences like collapses.

I’m interested to know if there’s any kind of average number for singletons vs multiples in nicu. My brain is telling me multiples are more likely to end up in nicu,

 

[Sundial]

It says las iguanas - Minna 18.00

Minna is one of her colleagues/friend

Is that what it is? The “00” at the end looks like a “w”

I will edit my post. Thank you for clarifying.
EBM; can no longer edit the post.

 

[iamshadow21]

One of the scariest things for me with this is.. what if she actually tampered with every baby in her care? So when looking at escalations you’re never really going to see the actions that didn’t have consequences like collapses.

I’m interested to know if there’s any kind of average number for singletons vs multiples in nicu. My brain is telling me multiples are more likely to end up in nicu,

I'm pretty certain she did. Even if for some, what she did didn't show on blood tests or machines. She strikes me as the sort to squeeze and grind together the bones in a baby's hand to make them cry, to pinch shut the nose and mouth of a baby who is breathing in open air, just because she can. She's a sadist, and I think every baby she ever came into contact with is a potential victim because of that.

I think they are, but I get the impression that even with that, the incidence of twins/multiple birth babies attacked is well in excess of natural incidence in a neonatal setting. This is just my impression, though, not based on any knowledge of numbers.

MOO

 

[sceawian]

I'm pretty certain she did. Even if for some, what she did didn't show on blood tests or machines. She strikes me as the sort to squeeze and grind together the bones in a baby's hand to make them cry, to pinch shut the nose and mouth of a baby who is breathing in open air, just because she can. She's a sadist, and I think every baby she ever came into contact with is a potential victim because of that.

I think they are, but I get the impression that even with that, the incidence of twins/multiple birth babies attacked is well in excess of natural incidence in a neonatal setting. This is just my impression, though, not based on any knowledge of numbers.

MOO

I also think she is even more prolific than suspected. What I want to know is when/how did it all start? We know two babies she worked with died at Liverpool Women's Hospital, but we don't know if the deaths were suspicious. You'd normally expect to see a ramp up in behaviour before committing full-blown murder, but that doesn't always follow. I wonder if by 2015 her compulsion to harm/kill + her confidence after getting away with it for a long time led to her behaving in an increasingly reckless manner.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Her colleagues at the time of Baby A also noted she was on a “ bad run “ - sadly there must be more. It’s horrifying.

 

[iamshadow21]

Her colleagues at the time of Baby A also noted she was on a “ bad run “ - sadly there must be more. It’s horrifying.

Yeah, that comment makes no sense unless there were a number of other babies who had collapses or died not long before then.

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

I'm pretty certain she did. Even if for some, what she did didn't show on blood tests or machines. She strikes me as the sort to squeeze and grind together the bones in a baby's hand to make them cry, to pinch shut the nose and mouth of a baby who is breathing in open air, just because she can. She's a sadist, and I think every baby she ever came into contact with is a potential victim because of that.

I think they are, but I get the impression that even with that, the incidence of twins/multiple birth babies attacked is well in excess of natural incidence in a neonatal setting. This is just my impression, though, not based on any knowledge of numbers.

MOO

Ofc Letby is not Allitt but I noticed that Allitt's offending including casual attacks such as putting a pillow over a baby's face.* (Allitt didn't have access to ICU and her victims were older babies and young children but the impulses seem similar)

* That was from the show below.

I can't put the Youtube urls up due to TOS but if you search for show titles you can find examples like this one below. It's a BBC dramatisation but it seems to be in line with the case facts I'd seen in a straight documentary.

Angel of Death : The Beverley Allitt Story (2005)​

I know you're interested in the psych aspects the LL case, so if you do watch it, it also covers the period while she was on bail and temp living at a friends. Attempts to poison dog, the brother and to simulate poltergeist activity to create as much havoc as possible.

or Trevor McDonald and the Killer Nurse
ITV traditional documentary on BA case focussing mainly on the investigative team, interviews the LE involved and BA's adult surviving victims, a retrospective. Incl some of the interrogation tapes.
(PS The two consultants who saved many lives were thrown under the bus, sacked. Lead detective had a major battle to build a case, against naysayers who said he'd never get there)

 

[iamshadow21]

Ofc Letby is not Allitt but I noticed that Allitt's offending including casual attacks such as putting a pillow over a baby's face.* (Allitt didn't have access to ICU and her victims were older babies and young children but the impulses seem similar)

* That was from the show below.

I can't put the Youtube urls up due to TOS but if you search for show titles you can find examples like this one below. It's a BBC dramatisation but it seems to be in line with the case facts I'd seen in a straight documentary.

Angel of Death : The Beverley Allitt Story (2005)​

I know you're interested in the psych aspects the LL case, so if you do watch it, it also covers the period while she was on bail and temp living at a friends. Attempts to poison dog, the brother and to simulate poltergeist activity to create as much havoc as possible.

or Trevor McDonald and the Killer Nurse
ITV traditional documentary on BA case focussing mainly on the investigative team, interviews the LE involved and BA's adult surviving victims, a retrospective. Incl some of the interrogation tapes.
(PS The two consultants who saved many lives were thrown under the bus, sacked. Lead detective had a major battle to build a case, against naysayers who said he'd never get there)

I watched a miniseries on Allitt today. She was different in some ways, but in others, wow. She's like version 1.0 to Letby's 2.0. Very, very similar. What the LE and other specialists had to say about her was almost word for word in some areas what we've been hearing said about Letby.

MOO

 

[Kemug]

I agree with a lot of the posts here about her. Particularly infantile personality. It feels to me like she has stunted development beyond early infancy. The methods of attack are totally mindless, as if the babies were not human to her but like toys she could break.

Her references to having meltdowns make me think that was a term used by others to describe her behaviour that she has adopted, but it doesn't feel age appropriate to me.

Not admitting she knew what going commando meant, feels like it comes from a little girl in front of her parents.

She even had what looks like a nursery-age photo posted in the paper for her 21st birthday, suggesting she is still seen as that little girl.

I think more than anything, she seems to have a lot of rage and intense jealousy. I think it triggered the murders/attempted murders, the babies became an easy target for her rage because they were pre-verbal, and IMO there were many people she was jealous of, colleagues and parents with their newborns. I don't think it's the entire picture, there is more to it but that feels to me like part of it.

The day before the murder of baby A she was away with her work colleagues on a hen do. I wonder if she came back from that trip jealous of the colleague who was getting

I agree, jealousy seems to be a large part of her personality, and I think it will lead to a more difficult time in prison. There will be prisoners there who have favourites, there will also be warders who have favourites. But Lucy may not be anyone's favourite. And Mummy and Daddy won't be there to make it better.

 

[Kemug]

I reckon her personality isn't nearly as attractive as her appearance. A jealous and immature narcissist isn't the type of woman most men want to be with. It must have bothered her immensely, given her ego.

I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason she had an affair or whatever with the doc was just to show everyone that she too could "get a man." Anyone would have done. And she could have kept it secret if she had wanted to. But she didn't, because that wasn't the point.

 

[Kemug]

there's a 'Top rated comment on that from somebody claiming to be a nurse from Cheshire - rubbishing the significance of the LD ( Long Day code in LL's diary) as a nothingburger.
The LD coded days for April literally have the names & dates of murdered twins in LL's handwriting next to the LD. ( the June LD marked pages show that the police have obscured her blue writing to protect the privacy of her June victims & replaced that with their alphabet system)


Also this was published today Nursing colleagues of Lucy Letby insist that she is innocent

Colleagues of killer nurse Lucy Letby continue to insist that she is innocent - even after the baby murderer was jailed for life earlier this week.

Nurses who worked alongside Letby, 33, at the Countess of Chester hospital and remain there now are reportedly struggling to accept that she murdered seven babies and tried to kill another six.

Oh yeah, there's nothing like sub-optimal care and hygiene issues for killing babies.

 

[cottonweaver]

I watched a miniseries on Allitt today. She was different in some ways, but in others, wow. She's like version 1.0 to Letby's 2.0. Very, very similar. What the LE and other specialists had to say about her was almost word for word in some areas what we've been hearing said about Letby.

MOO

Agreed. Also many of the characterisations from LE, prosecutors and judge are so similar.

Nobody has scratched the surface with LL yet.We know so little about her. Already we have bloggers pronouncing her as a classic ' Daddy's Girl', columnists declaring her motivations as jealousy as a single woman, no kids & pop psychs diagnosing when sometimes they haven't followed any of the trial details.
Bit early to come to conclusions, all we have is scraps of info.

Anyway, I was intrigued at the way that BA had the gumption to refuse to co-operate & go 'No comment' at the second interrogation whilst LL in contrast decided to engage with LE across all three interrogations but imo LL appears more intelligent than BA.
The LL detective Danielle said that LL's demeanour under interrogation was similar to her responses at trial. Calm, detached, resilient. IMO I think she assumed she still could control this and win. ( The bravado shown by the earlier taking out a formal grievance is also striking)
Some suggested that BA played the system to get out of Holloway Prison for a better quality of life at Rampton secure mental hospital. IDK how true that is but she seemed to be acting out in that first week at Holloway ( hunger strike to get the diagnosis of anorexia & injecting herself in order to claim inflammations of the breast, manipulating temperature readings etc)
I just wondered if LL is planning anything like that in her post conviction phase?

 

[cottonweaver]

Oh yeah, there's nothing like sub-optimal care and hygiene issues for killing babies.

Denial of harsh reality runs through the whole case like a stick of rock.

 

[Charlot123]

I haven't seen any evidence of devout or extreme conservative religiosity. There's enough information out there about Letby's birth for me to form that conclusion.

MOO

BARBARA DAVIES: Lucy Letby's parents shared loving looks with her

BARBARA DAVIES: Baby killer Lucy Letby was born in January 1990, six months after her parents John and Susan married and not long after they bought the house where they still live in Hereford.

www.dailymail.co.uk

To be honest, I was surprised to read that Lucy was attending church at least at school (shouldn't "thou shalt not kill" be the minimum home take message?). At the same time, I understand I was naive in thinking that if the family was super-religious, that could explain Lucy's anger if she had to conceal her any-but-straight interests.

Most likely, this will remain the case where no usual explanation would apply. Probably, we have to just accept that Lucy was like any other serial killer. Enjoyed killing, felt in control. But since she was not LI killer, i.e., not a big strong guy, she killed whom she could easily overtake, and these were tiny, premature babies. Super sad.

 

[Charlot123]

No, it was more the acting out to elicit excitement I was referring to. Borderline personality disorder is in the same group as antisocial and narcissistic personality disorders and it's a spectrum like any other mental health issue so I'd expect her to score pretty high on psychopathic traits too - many people who have borderline personality disorder are more a threat to themselves than others but you throw in psychopathy too and you end up with someone like Letby.

JMO

JMO - BPD, a complex condition, is between mistrust of others and horrible self-esteem. There are some interesting studies indicating BPD lying in the intersection of three other well-known conditions. Maybe in five years we shall have a better understanding of what it is.

But my inner image of an ideal borderline girl would be not a “difficult” person, far from it. On the contrary, she is very nice, very polite, exceptionally attractive if on the slim side, always perfectly dressed and groomed, at this, she is also very smart and is “a helper”. She is often a loner in the college but gets perfect grades…and suddenly she falls apart and leaves when there is just one year left to graduate. And then she’d transfer and do great, and then fall apart several months shy of graduating again. This constant self-sabotaging on the verge of success is very common for BPD, IMHO. Either they get tired of pretending to be perfect, or this perfection is a shield, covering the fear of someone seeing “the real her”, or maybe success would put them right into the limelight and they don’t enjoy it.

This is why, if we are thinking Lucy and BPD, Münchausen syndrome is a little bit off that track. Münchausen syndrome would be probably more typical for histrionic personality disorder, another cluster B trait. Histrionics love attention and love to be in the center of attention. Borderlines, not quite.

I don’t quite know where I am driving at… some intuitive path about Lucy who I think is borderline. Very secretive. Prone to splitting. Her note was an example of splitting too. But maybe “splitting” refers not only to the external world, that’s either “all good” or “all bad”. Maybe it could be applicable to self-perception. Maybe the more she tried to look “nice and kind” in the eyes of everyone else, the more she had to balance it by “being horrible”? And when doctor A appeared, she had to try harder to be the best…and it pushed her more to be “horrible and murderous” when no one saw her”?

ETA: This phrase “I killed them on purpose because I am not good enough to care for them” is the example of splitting IMHO. The better she looks in the eyes of the world (and she does, she is a band 5 NICU nurse, the ultimate helper, plus the face of the unit in 2012, and the parents are thankful, too), the harder to keep the facade, and then she secretly does something horrible to prove to herself that she is not “good enough”. And then she can keep up with being “Mrs. Perfection”.

Does anyone see it this way?

 

[katydid23]

Is there any chance at all she is innocent and the poor little babies died of natural causes and it was a bizarre coincidence?sorry to sound stupid. I did read her notes. I just can’t imagine a nurse doing this.

It wasn't a bizarre coincidence. There was air injected into many of those babies, and two babies were poisoned with insulin, and two had crushed liver's. It was not from natural causes.

 

[d0lphin]

FWIW
I think she accidentally harmed a baby early in her career and found she enjoyed it (the attention and the harming) and it escalated from there. This would tie in with there being no issues identified in childhood.
JMO