GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[cottonweaver]

Excellent commentary from one of the reporters, Liz Hull, responsible for the Podcast 'The trial of Lucy Letby' ( Mail) Also at the link is a paragraph where the reporter describes being berated by LL's parents but it's too much to quote all of the article

'In my mind, it all hinged on whether Letby would go into the witness box. If she was to have any chance of being cleared, she needed the jury to like her.
But in person, Letby was incapable of showing emotion or humanity. Her demeanour was glacial, her face blank and devoid of expression. When she started giving evidence in her defence, her delivery was so deliberate it bordered on robotic.

I admit, I was thrown by how 'normal' she looked; too ordinary to be a killer, surely.
But once she started speaking, there was no inflection in her voice, no evidence of distress, no imploring us to believe she wasn't a killer. As time went on, I just didn't believe her. If she was a caring nurse, surely she would have shown it?'

On a couple of occasions, I caught her sharing a joke with the prison officers who brought her to court each day, but as soon as she realised journalists, police officers, lawyers — and especially the jury — were filing in, the mask went back on......
Letby listened intently to the witnesses, often passing notes to the young female solicitor on her legal team, and had daily meetings with Mr Myers after court finished for the day, before being whisked back to her cell at HMP New Hall, in Wakefield, an hour down the M62.

Watching the mother of a boy murdered by Lucy Letby, I wept in court

LIZ HULL: I've been to almost every day of the trial, sitting just a few feet away from the woman accused of some of the worst crimes in modern times.

www.dailymail.co.uk

@Furore. Manipulating - see bolded? '
'Letby claimed she had developed post-traumatic stress from her arrest, and sat in the dock throughout her trial clutching two blankets — one pink and one lilac.

She also held on to a tiny 'stress' toy for comfort when she gave evidence and — not allowed the support of her legal team while mid-testimony — was granted regular visits with the court's resident mental health nurse, who helped her cope with days of probing, spiky questions from Mr Johnson.'

 

[sceawian]

"In person Letby was incapable of showing emotion or humanity.

Her demeanour was glacial, her face blank and devoid of expression.

When she started giving evidence in her defence, her delivery was so deliberate it bordered on robotic."

Watching the mother of a boy murdered by Lucy Letby, I wept in court

LIZ HULL: I've been to almost every day of the trial, sitting just a few feet away from the woman accused of some of the worst crimes in modern times.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This is a beautifully written and emotive article; something you don't expect from the DM!

 

[Eloise]

JMO but there can be an anti doctor rhetoric in some boards particularly when from nursing background. I think it fit their prejudice that consultants were harassing a nurse rather than god forbid, there was a serial killer on the loose. On top of which yes, LL was charming and cajoling and tricking really influential figures to maintain her supply of victims on the neonatal unit. She got repeatedly overfamiliar - with the doctor she loved, with the nursing director - having dinners with her - getting her dad involved in grievance meetings - adding mothers on Facebook - this isn’t someone with boundaries.

I think things will change in the nhs as a result of this case, some new reporting system or new legislation but terrible and incompetent humans have existed since th dawn of time I don’t think that’s entirely solveable.

Yeah I got that sense. That some of the protections offered to LL came from managers from a nursing background who were primed to protect a nurse over doctors.

I actually am inclined to believe that she did manipulate them and that the protection they gave her was not malevolent or negligent, but from a genuine belief that she was being picked on. I feel like once again it comes down to flawed systems and policies and procedures, more than anything else.

Whistleblowers need to be listened to even if what they have to say isn't pleasant or is harmful to PR or involves people you think you trust. A 'see something say something' culture needs to be promoted and maintained and seen as positive. After all if you've got nothing to hide, having someone say "hey I think what you're doing might be a problem', then if there's a culture of accountability and reflection then that shouldn't be an issue.

Also this is a total side note and JMO IMO etc but I think its going to be found out that she's been harming babies since she first qualified. I think a previous posters idea (I'm sorry but I read this post too long ago to remember who it was now) that she deliberately sought out child nursing as a career in order to harm babies might be on the money. I didn't think so at first, I thought she probably just came to realise she enjoyed the pain of grieving parents, but as more and more stories come out I think its going to turn out that she's harmed or killed so many more babies and from teh earliest days of her career. It was alleged one of those handover sheets was from student placement days - so bizarre, and also so very much against fundamental ideas about patient privacy and confidentiality that she would have been hearing about all the time as a student. I think it'll be similar to Shipman where its acknowledged the death/harm count is much much much higher than what she's sentenced for, but the court case came down to those very solid cases.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Have found that quote but I don't know who was responsible for this critical early decision

'The sequence of events exposed by one of Britain’s longest murder trials made clear the almost wilful blindness of the hospital’s top executives to what was going on. For months they believed the senior doctors were engaged in a witch hunt against Letby. They refused to group the three early killings together, classing them as “medication errors” rather than unexpected deaths.

The Times view on Lucy Letby: Deadly Incompetence​

https://archive.ph/8hXvE#selection-923.0-923.379

thats absolutely indefensible and I think absolutely incorrect as well. There isn’t any way to defend that it’s aimed and loaded straight at the clinical staff. I can’t see that not being an outright lie. The consultants I wonder if they knew that? They would going ape

 

[iamshadow21]

Excellent commentary from one of the reporters, Liz Hull, responsible for the Podcast 'The trial of Lucy Letby' ( Mail) Also at the link is a paragraph where the reporter describes being berated by LL's parents but it's too much to quote all of the article

'In my mind, it all hinged on whether Letby would go into the witness box. If she was to have any chance of being cleared, she needed the jury to like her.
But in person, Letby was incapable of showing emotion or humanity. Her demeanour was glacial, her face blank and devoid of expression. When she started giving evidence in her defence, her delivery was so deliberate it bordered on robotic.

I admit, I was thrown by how 'normal' she looked; too ordinary to be a killer, surely.
But once she started speaking, there was no inflection in her voice, no evidence of distress, no imploring us to believe she wasn't a killer. As time went on, I just didn't believe her. If she was a caring nurse, surely she would have shown it?'

On a couple of occasions, I caught her sharing a joke with the prison officers who brought her to court each day, but as soon as she realised journalists, police officers, lawyers — and especially the jury — were filing in, the mask went back on......
Letby listened intently to the witnesses, often passing notes to the young female solicitor on her legal team, and had daily meetings with Mr Myers after court finished for the day, before being whisked back to her cell at HMP New Hall, in Wakefield, an hour down the M62.

Watching the mother of a boy murdered by Lucy Letby, I wept in court

LIZ HULL: I've been to almost every day of the trial, sitting just a few feet away from the woman accused of some of the worst crimes in modern times.

www.dailymail.co.uk

@Furore. Manipulating - see bolded? '
'Letby claimed she had developed post-traumatic stress from her arrest, and sat in the dock throughout her trial clutching two blankets — one pink and one lilac.

She also held on to a tiny 'stress' toy for comfort when she gave evidence and — not allowed the support of her legal team while mid-testimony — was granted regular visits with the court's resident mental health nurse, who helped her cope with days of probing, spiky questions from Mr Johnson.'

I'm guessing the mother whose story broke Liz Hull's impartial remove was that of Child C. She broke me up, too, but that's not as impressive, I cry at anything. The last ten years or so, anyway. Catching up on all the crying I didn't do as a kid, but needed to.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

Yeah I got that sense. That some of the protections offered to LL came from managers from a nursing background who were primed to protect a nurse over doctors.

I actually am inclined to believe that she did manipulate them and that the protection they gave her was not malevolent or negligent, but from a genuine belief that she was being picked on. I feel like once again it comes down to flawed systems and policies and procedures, more than anything else.

Whistleblowers need to be listened to even if what they have to say isn't pleasant or is harmful to PR or involves people you think you trust. A 'see something say something' culture needs to be promoted and maintained and seen as positive. After all if you've got nothing to hide, having someone say "hey I think what you're doing might be a problem', then if there's a culture of accountability and reflection then that shouldn't be an issue.

Also this is a total side note and JMO IMO etc but I think its going to be found out that she's been harming babies since she first qualified. I think a previous posters idea (I'm sorry but I read this post too long ago to remember who it was now) that she deliberately sought out child nursing as a career in order to harm babies might be on the money. I didn't think so at first, I thought she probably just came to realise she enjoyed the pain of grieving parents, but as more and more stories come out I think its going to turn out that she's harmed or killed so many more babies and from teh earliest days of her career. It was alleged one of those handover sheets was from student placement days - so bizarre, and also so very much against fundamental ideas about patient privacy and confidentiality that she would have been hearing about all the time as a student. I think it'll be similar to Shipman where its acknowledged the death/harm count is much much much higher than what she's sentenced for, but the court case came down to those very solid cases.

She had NINETY NINE handover sheets from her time as a student.

The one preserved in the gold and roses keepsake box was probably from her first shift as a student nurse.

Lucy Letby denies photographing sympathy card ‘to get thrill’

A NURSE has denied she got “a thrill” from photographing a sympathy card sent to the parents of a baby girl she allegedly murdered.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

MOO

 

[Kemug]

Her friend didn't mention LL babysitting as a teen but did say this, which frankly I think sounds weird as hell but there ya go!

Jade Thomas, 33, a friend from Aylestone who likened her to Mary Poppins, said Letby’s decision to become a nurse came as no surprise because from her mid-teens she would often talk about children’s health and development.

source

Yes, she's always been interested in babies' health!

 

[Kemug]

So LL has PTDS, and is startled by loud noises - I can't tell you how much this distresses me. Diddums.

 

[Sweeper2000]

So LL has PTDS, and is startled by loud noises - I can't tell you how much this distresses me. Diddums.

Do you think confined spaces bother her?

 

[Eloise]

She had NINETY NINE handover sheets from her time as a student.

The one preserved in the gold and roses keepsake box was probably from her first shift as a student nurse.

Lucy Letby denies photographing sympathy card ‘to get thrill’

A NURSE has denied she got “a thrill” from photographing a sympathy card sent to the parents of a baby girl she allegedly murdered.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

MOO

exactly. IMO it started as a student.
I really want to know so much more about her childhood/teen years at home. Being an only child and having some kind of weirdly co-dependent relationship with her parents, I wonder if there wasn't much opportunity for her to do much. Probably lucky there were no younger siblings. Were her cats well cared for? Is it only small humans she has it in for? Would she do it to bigger people if she was brave enough?

 

[iamshadow21]

exactly. IMO it started as a student.
I really want to know so much more about her childhood/teen years at home. Being an only child and having some kind of weirdly co-dependent relationship with her parents, I wonder if there wasn't much opportunity for her to do much. Probably lucky there were no younger siblings. Were her cats well cared for? Is it only small humans she has it in for? Would she do it to bigger people if she was brave enough?

Perhaps, but perhaps not. And if perhaps, I think the circumstances would have to be right.

To draw a parallel with Allitt, one of the charges she was found not guilty on, I think because of lack of evidence, was of attacking an elderly woman at a nursing home where she was moonlighting after being suspended from Grantham. The second eldest person she possibly attacked was a fifteen year old younger brother of a friend she was living with during the same period. All her other victims were children, mostly babies. At least two had known existing disabilities - Timothy Hardwick (11) and Kayley Desmond (15mos). I think Allitt's preference was for babies or very young or disabled children, but when denied this prey, she seemed to be open to branching out to other demographics.

To draw a parallel with Dahmer, another serial killer for whom having total control of the body was important, he often drugged or otherwise incapacitated his victims prior to killing them, so that he could completely control the situation leading up to the death and what he did to the bodies after. (Don't look it up if you don't know, once it's in your brain you can never unknow it.) But he did switch it up and kill several victims by bludgeoning or beating, notably, his first was killed this way. So, he preferred to take his time and have a completely passive victim, but could and did revert to extreme violence at times, when it served him. We see Letby's versatility in approach, too. Sometimes, she injected a drug or air. The most extreme example of this was the insulin, which would slowly drip poison over hours to days. Other times, she would inject a large amount of air or milk into an infant's stomach quickly. Still others, she would use extreme violence - with a medical tool or tube in the infant's throat, or through a violent blow to the abdomen with a tool or her hand. This shows she isn't stuck using one weapon or one rigid script to hurt her victims. She changes due to circumstances, due to the child's individual condition, and due to her own whims.

I think it would be foolish to assume that Letby denied access to babies is a benign, toothless Letby. That removing the prey makes her inert and harmless. Letby is a sadist, and while she might have a preference, she's going to take what she can get from now on. She may be reduced to feeding on manipulation and mind games, which there are plenty of in a closed environment like a prison. But she may find a way to hurt others in there physically, and they're going to have to constantly be on their guard for signs she might be heading that way. But with other inmates like Dennehy, they're not exactly new to this, especially as they seem to specialise in violent, personality disordered offenders. It's where she belongs.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned / discussed.

I do think she was telling the truth about being arrested in her nightie.

When you look at the photo of her leaving the house, you can clearly see a long navy blue cotton nightshirt poking from under her tracksuit top. I believe she was in her nightie and simply shoved her tracksuit over the top.

But if so, she would still have been lying to the jury when she claimed she was arrested and taken in her nightie. If she had her track suit over the nightie, then there is no issue with being taken out that way.

That's like saying 'I was arrested in my bra and undies' when you actually had a track suit on over them.

She was being purposely misleading. She probably had her nightie on when the cops arrived as it was so early. But she was allowed to throw a jacket on over it. So it was dishonest for her to say it was so upsetting to be arrested and taken away in her nightie. JMO

 

[Furore]

Excellent commentary from one of the reporters, Liz Hull, responsible for the Podcast 'The trial of Lucy Letby' ( Mail) Also at the link is a paragraph where the reporter describes being berated by LL's parents but it's too much to quote all of the article

'In my mind, it all hinged on whether Letby would go into the witness box. If she was to have any chance of being cleared, she needed the jury to like her.
But in person, Letby was incapable of showing emotion or humanity. Her demeanour was glacial, her face blank and devoid of expression. When she started giving evidence in her defence, her delivery was so deliberate it bordered on robotic.

I admit, I was thrown by how 'normal' she looked; too ordinary to be a killer, surely.
But once she started speaking, there was no inflection in her voice, no evidence of distress, no imploring us to believe she wasn't a killer. As time went on, I just didn't believe her. If she was a caring nurse, surely she would have shown it?'

On a couple of occasions, I caught her sharing a joke with the prison officers who brought her to court each day, but as soon as she realised journalists, police officers, lawyers — and especially the jury — were filing in, the mask went back on......
Letby listened intently to the witnesses, often passing notes to the young female solicitor on her legal team, and had daily meetings with Mr Myers after court finished for the day, before being whisked back to her cell at HMP New Hall, in Wakefield, an hour down the M62.

Watching the mother of a boy murdered by Lucy Letby, I wept in court

LIZ HULL: I've been to almost every day of the trial, sitting just a few feet away from the woman accused of some of the worst crimes in modern times.

www.dailymail.co.uk

@Furore. Manipulating - see bolded? '
'Letby claimed she had developed post-traumatic stress from her arrest, and sat in the dock throughout her trial clutching two blankets — one pink and one lilac.

She also held on to a tiny 'stress' toy for comfort when she gave evidence and — not allowed the support of her legal team while mid-testimony — was granted regular visits with the court's resident mental health nurse, who helped her cope with days of probing, spiky questions from Mr Johnson.'

Good article thank you. As much as I do think she had a fragile mental health system and wasn’t coping with real life without her parents to cushion the blow, also think looking victimised is the card she’d been playing since before her arrest!

I find her very challenging to work out! I’ve been able to read more of her cross examination the past few days and she is indeed coming across cold and superior/resentful.

 

[katydid23]

I’ve a Working theory or a theory I’m working on. I’m wondering what it will Be agreed up in years to come allowed this to happen then. I’m thinking how much of it is relative to the degree that the circumstances surrounding the deaths and incidents was contained to its immediate environment where proper reporting would have done a better job of addressing the problem. Say for instance if the events of child A had of followed a different route in being reported to governing bodies would then the issue have been dealt with more swiftly?

im looking at this might be the result of Lucy letby herself, if she’s cuddling up to managers is all the relevant info being reported correctly because it doesn’t seem so to me. all that “nice lucy“ output making the managers stonewall the consultants?

I don't think any one would have reported anything right after child A because there was nothing to think then, to believe it was super suspicious. If that was her only murder, it probably wouldn't have never been uncovered. It was the shock of sudden collapses 3 babies ---A, B and then C that raised red flags. The consultants had their suspicions by then even though management rejected the idea.

 

[Kemug]

Do you think confined spaces bother her?

I certainly hope so!

 

[Kemug]

But if so, she would still have been lying to the jury when she claimed she was arrested and taken in her nightie. If she had her track suit over the nightie, then there is no issue with being taken out that way.

That's like saying 'I was arrested in my bra and undies' when you actually had a track suit on over them.

She was being purposely misleading. She probably had her nightie on when the cops arrived as it was so early. But she was allowed to throw a jacket on over it. So it was dishonest for her to say it was so upsetting to be arrested and taken away in her nightie. JMO

Only today I went shopping in my bra and undies!

 

[cottonweaver]

Good article thank you. As much as I do think she had a fragile mental health system and wasn’t coping with real life without her parents to cushion the blow, also think looking victimised is the card she’d been playing since before her arrest!

I find her very challenging to work out! I’ve been able to read more of her cross examination the past few days and she is indeed coming across cold and superior/resentful.

Because of copyright I couldn't paste too much of that article but noticed that reporter Liz Hull also says she claims to have been diagnosed w hypersensitivity and hypervigilance disorders. ( Have never heard of those as standalone disorders & haven't checked them out.)
So, a claim of PTSD from the arrests and is being treated w antidepressants,so must have a diagnosis of clinical depression too.

But the reporter catches her sharing jokes w the 2 prison officers when no one is looking and is normally careful about an emotionless mask.
'On a couple of occasions, I caught her sharing a joke with the prison officers who brought her to court each day, but as soon as she realised journalists, police officers, lawyers — and especially the jury — were filing in, the mask went back on......'

I don't doubt that anyone normal will be depressed at this point in crim justice process but could the blankness be contrived ? You posted y'day that she might be playing a role via that post it & I wasn't sure.
Maybe she is & does it often.
Is she self-selecting symptoms and then playing a role for the jury? eg. ' oh flat affect, that'll do, ' mousey voice, plus exactly as you say ' look victimised.' ( By contrast, totally controlled was description of LE chief Hughes in his last interviews. )
( Reports with quotes from anon close friends have said she was fun-loving playful w close friends. Testimony, texts and photos from her nursing days also show she's not typically emotionally expressionless)

PS noticed a criminologist also believes that when she got the special exemption from judge to enter courtroom first that that this was another sign of of her wishing to exert control of events.
Very likely, but it's also a very strong display signal to the jury. I am a traumatised victim. Dual benefits

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

A new Daily Mail article has another childhood picture of her, and the recollections of one of her peers from that time, who recalls 'an element of weirdness' about her.

Smiling schoolgirl Lucy Letby - Britain's most prolific child killer

What drove Letby, 33, to murder seven babies and harm six others during a year-long spree at the Countess of Chester Hospital remains a mystery.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Parker Knoll]

I have said this before but so many threads have passed, I have seen many defendants give evidence over the years but nothing could prepare me for Letby on the stand.
She was like no other EVER. A total closed book and if I hadn’t seen it for myself I would of struggled to believe it simply from reporting. I notice Liz Hull used the word “ Glacial “ and she’s absolutely correct. It was morbidly fascinating to watch in real time and you could cut the atmosphere with a knife. There is without doubt two LL’s somewhere in there.
JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

I have said this before but so many threads have passed, I have seen many defendants give evidence over the years but nothing could prepare me for Letby on the stand.
She was like no other EVER. A total closed book and if I hadn’t seen it for myself I would of struggled to believe it simply from reporting. I notice Liz Hull used the word “ Glacial “ and she’s absolutely correct. It was morbidly fascinating to watch in real time and you could cut the atmosphere with a knife. There is without doubt two LL’s somewhere in there.
JMO

Gosh! I didn't realise you had managed to attend & saw her face to face plus you have defendants to compare her to.

Am struck by her having the stress ball and two comforters in pink & lilac but also that she's glacial. Did she make a show of these objects? ( Reporters certainly seemed to notice them)