GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #12

[Clio]

<rsbm> Def need AG on the stand, she is crucial.

That will not happen now. She has been in the public gallery so we will not see her testify as a witness. The best that could be hoped for is a written statement. The prosecution has completed presenting it's evidence. About the only chance a statement from AG might be produced is during cross examination of the remaining defendants.

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes and they have this other charges made against him alone( voyeurism & sexual assault) and the indecent images of a child for the pair.

Naturally I have only just found out about those, from this thread.
(Prior to this thread I didn't have any real thoughts as to motive, I didn't read all the news articles on it - a domestic violence angle is all I thought complicated by sibling rivalry perhaps. )
After reading the thread and starting to back track on the articles ( before I heard about the extra charges) I thought the police know best and they are seeing this as sexually motivated. When they say that it doesn't necessarily mean the perp wants to have sex with the victim though. (There can simply be a sexual side to the violence/attack.)

On reading more it seemed clear to me he has some fixed sexual compulsions and his "pretty, petite teen" fetish and addiction to *advertiser censored* ( esp as it fitted the object of his fantasies) and a step-sister he has known that long, who was also fitting that bill ( esp when she was very slim through anorexia) may have been the object of long held dark fantasy for him which he can't admit too. For me, combine this with a savage treatment of the body -against a family member even when not close- I thought this man is capable of something quite twisted plus must have psychopathic tendencies. ( To now hear the path say how meticulously that was carried out, it confirms both his detachment and possibly some level of satisfaction in that task.)

Anyway, I am still open to other ideas, and I do think it could be possibly something simpler- a row that got out of hand etc, I think the cheque thing is really interesting, but then I come back to the purchase of two stun guns in advance in Dec/Jan. This man was not AFAIK just a collector of weapons etc like some young men are. (For me it fits more with his desire to incapacitate someone and planning and his fantasy dark side.)
The fact that SH and NM's reln. was no holds barred re. other women ( even if just compliant ) and the *advertiser censored* was a in-joke twixt them makes me think he could even have discussed his sexual feelings towards BW with SH.
However I think they both knew that BW would never have a 3some with them even if they asked her so I don't necessarily believe this is as simple as a sexual offer to Becky that went wrong. ( Anyway that's my cod psychology contribution! )

TBH I don't know what the motive is and it's good to explore all the simpler options too.

Whatever it is NM says, think the opposite, so yes could be a cheque or £ issues that spark, could be just as Cherwell said a row that gets out of hand but bizarrely he cannot admit to that and has to say "I did it for my mum" almost! Def need AG on the stand, she is crucial. That would rattle him on a deep level. They have exchanged a smile even recently, during trial haven't they.)

PS I would have expected more of a history of violence from this guy to come out ( beyond SH's accounts)

Have you watched Nathan's interviews yet ? I'd built up a similar picture to you of him, how detached and savage he must be to have cut his own step sister up... till I watched the videos and his reactions to the discussion of what happened. He comes across as quite child like, sobbing, closing his eyes, not looking up,not wanting Shauna's name mentioned. Not the cold calculated , detached individual I was expecting.

ETA video for reference

[video=youtube;dCHkNgbv0Qk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCHkNgbv0Qk[/video]

 

[cottonweaver]

Have you watched Nathan's interviews yet ? I'd built up a similar picture to you of him, how detached and savage he must be to have cut his own step sister up... till I watched the videos and his reactions to the discussion of what happened. He comes across as quite child like, sobbing, closing his eyes, not looking up,not wanting Shauna's name mentioned. Not the cold calculated , detached individual I was expecting.

ETA video for reference

[video=youtube;dCHkNgbv0Qk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCHkNgbv0Qk[/video]

Yes CP that was subject of my first post and why I started posting as I basically said he doesn't have the mental capacities** etc , but she does, she is lying and is quite manipulative with zero empathy. I even pitied him when I saw the VT and posted the same.( However I have heard him on the stand since then and he was more cocky and arrogant there.)

That said, his deficiencies, to my mind do not alter the poss that he has psychopathic tendencies etc. ( IF he did the dismemberment.) I am afraid to say his vulnerabilities, anxieties, MH issues for sure plus assume S.L.Needs don't exclude, AFAIK violent sadistic propensities and a sufficient detachment & cunning to do almost successfully do a Dexter basically, as PSuspect said.

His SLN does perhaps explain the ludicrousness of the story, his bizarre notions of storing this body in a shed 80m from his own home etc when he admits that him & SH were the last witnesses to BW being alive. ( Of course the cops would knock at his door very fast, shame they didn't do it earlier ) I presume he had a longer term plan for the remains but just got scared and admitted all fast to save SH

** I mean mental capacities to do all this without her knowledge etc and exert this level of control over SH. ( I watched her's and his VTs on same day.)

 

[edgedweller]

Yes CP that was subject of my first post and why I started posting as I basically said he doesn't have the mental capacities etc , but she does, she is lying and is quite manipulative with zero empathy. I even pitied him when I saw the VT and posted the same.( However I have heard him on the stand since then and he was more cocky and arrogant there.)

That said, his deficiencies, to my mind do not alter the poss that he has psychopathic tendencies etc. ( IF he did the dismemberment.) I am afraid to say his vulnerabilities, anxieties, MH issues for sure plus assume S.L.Needs don't exclude, AFAIK violent sadistic propensities and a sufficient detachment & cunning to do almost successfully do a Dexter basically, as PSuspect said.

His SLN does perhaps explain the ludicrousness of the story, his bizarre notions of storing this body in a shed 80m from his own home etc when he admits that him & SH were the last witnesses to BW being alive. ( Of course the cops would knock at his door very fast, shame they didn't do it earlier ) I presume he had a longer term plan for the remains but just got scared and admitted all fast to save SH

Sorry, what's SLN?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tortoise]

Yes CP that was subject of my first post and why I started posting as I basically said he doesn't have the mental capacities** etc , but she does, she is lying and is quite manipulative with zero empathy. I even pitied him when I saw the VT and posted the same.( However I have heard him on the stand since then and he was more cocky and arrogant there.)

That said, his deficiencies, to my mind do not alter the poss that he has psychopathic tendencies etc. ( IF he did the dismemberment.) I am afraid to say his vulnerabilities, anxieties, MH issues for sure plus assume S.L.Needs don't exclude, AFAIK violent sadistic propensities and a sufficient detachment & cunning to do almost successfully do a Dexter basically, as PSuspect said.

His SLN does perhaps explain the ludicrousness of the story, his bizarre notions of storing this body in a shed 80m from his own home etc when he admits that him & SH were the last witnesses to BW being alive. ( Of course the cops would knock at his door very fast, shame they didn't do it earlier ) I presume he had a longer term plan for the remains but just got scared and admitted all fast to save SH

** I mean mental capacities to do all this without her knowledge etc

I wonder if he wasn't worried about his car being seen by police outside CML, whether he would have used it to take the body parts somewhere else other than the friend's shed. It seems like a last resort to involve other people in a plan where they will then know he is hiding something.

I would think he could only bury them to avoid discovery.

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes CP that was subject of my first post and why I started posting as I basically said he doesn't have the mental capacities etc , but she does, she is lying and is quite manipulative with zero empathy. I even pitied him when I saw the VT and posted the same.( However I have heard him on the stand since then and he was more cocky and arrogant there.)

That said, his deficiencies, to my mind do not alter the poss that he has psychopathic tendencies etc. ( IF he did the dismemberment.) I am afraid to say his vulnerabilities, anxieties, MH issues for sure plus assume S.L.Needs don't exclude, AFAIK violent sadistic propensities and a sufficient detachment & cunning to do almost successfully do a Dexter basically, as PSuspect said.

His SLN does perhaps explain the ludicrousness of the story, his bizarre notions of storing this body in a shed 80m from his own home etc when he admits that him & SH were the last witnesses to BW being alive. ( Of course the cops would knock at his door very fast, shame they didn't do it earlier ) I presume he had a longer term plan for the remains but just got scared and admitted all fast to save SH

Ah thanks I can remember your post now. I wish we had heard him on the stand but we've only had quotes and reports of what he said rather than seeing how he said it. There was mention of him breaking down and sobbing on the stand so I wonder if he was similar to how he appeared in the confession video.

I agree that SH does come across as having less empathy and again her video surprised me as she came across fairly calm, controlled and level headed , despite what she was being accused of.

I'm still torn over who killed Becky and who did the dismembering. One minute I think maybe she was plunged into the situation through being there and agreed to cover up as long as he accepted full responsibility if they were caught... then I think of the texts joking about kidnapping and attics, her playing him the "Do you want to hide a body" video and watching horror/vampire movies at exactly the time they had a body in the house and that little smirk she tried to hide when the police interviewer asked "Why Becky?" and think "Nope, she was involved in the killing too, in fact maybe even have instigated it"

ETA he said he was thinking of driving to the sea with the body parts so I think that was one possible long term plan. His plan was to pick them up in a few days and empty his and SH's ISAs to pay off KD. He'd also booked four weeks off work.

 

[Tortoise]

Also, can anyone remember what sentence Maxine Carr got? I don't know why but this case keeps reminding me of them, I think it's the potential "innocent girlfriend" aspect, and the bath.

reminds me more of Myra Hindley

 

[Tortoise]

JI could seal SH's fate, if he testifies that she was awake.

 

[Clio]

JI could seal SH's fate, if he testifies that she was awake.

That would only be as far as the perverting the course of justice charge though. And possibly preventing a lawful burial.

 

[mrazda71]

I've noticed a few people comment on the difference between Nathan and Shauna's demeanour in the videos and some seem to think that especially compared to Nathan, she seems cold, controlled, confident, unmoved but couldn't it just be the difference between someone who's just killed his step-sister and spent days panicking about the sky falling in and someone who's innocent?

We often all focus on the past guilty offenders behaviour during interview and trial but I wonder if anyone can recall being certain someone was guilty but it's turned out that they were in fact innocent?

 

[cottonweaver]

Ah thanks I can remember your post now. I wish we had heard him on the stand but we've only had quotes and reports of what he said rather than seeing how he said it. There was mention of him breaking down and sobbing on the stand so I wonder if he was similar to how he appeared in the confession video.

rsbm

FWIW I think also he has strong sense of shame (as opposed to conscience) esp in respect of his Mum AG knowing etc. and this comes out with those tears, breaking down.
I assume (cod psych again LOL) this shame is also connected to his SLNeeds , lack of self-worth, another terrible childhood etc.

I'm def not excusing his actions etc or sympathising etc . This is a diabolical crime full stop and they need to pay, if proven naturally.
Both SH & NM, to my mind and incl BW are/were very scarred individuals .....which is such an indictment at a very young age. All these toxic factors ( I couldn't list them all, they are across every page of the threads), look at the damage that ensues incl. their own child.

 

[cottonweaver]

I've noticed a few people comment on the difference between Nathan and Shauna's demeanour in the videos and some seem to think that especially compared to Nathan, she seems cold, controlled, confident, unmoved but couldn't it just be the difference between someone who's just killed his step-sister and spent days panicking about the sky falling in and someone who's innocent?

We often all focus on the past guilty offenders behaviour during interview and trial but I wonder if anyone can recall being certain someone was guilty but it's turned out that they were in fact innocent?

Yes to both mrazda.

But when you consider, as you have said yourself, we are all analysing every detail, nuance to the nth degree, correcting each other etc don't you think we are all of us, trying to look at every angle too - that might mean we all conclude something different to what we first thought/based on hunches/instinct.

when everyone on here starts to becoming completely inflexible in the face of all suggestions - that's when it all ends up barking up the wrong tree - to me, that doesn't seem to be happening. ( A desire to win an argument or be "right" never helps get to the bottom of these puzzles IMO)

 

[Cherwell]

Sorry, what's SLN?

Yes, I'm wondering that too.

 

[ColourPurple]

I've noticed a few people comment on the difference between Nathan and Shauna's demeanour in the videos and some seem to think that especially compared to Nathan, she seems cold, controlled, confident, unmoved but couldn't it just be the difference between someone who's just killed his step-sister and spent days panicking about the sky falling in and someone who's innocent?

We often all focus on the past guilty offenders behaviour during interview and trial but I wonder if anyone can recall being certain someone was guilty but it's turned out that they were in fact innocent?

Yes I've considered and posted about that before, but any emotional reaction seems to be when she thinks about herself and her children, even in court we've heard of her showing no emotion while Becky's injuries etc were read out yet crying when her threesome friend gave evidence, then there's that smile when asked "Why Becky", can't shake the feeling that she could have been involved.

 

[ColourPurple]

That would only be as far as the perverting the course of justice charge though. And possibly preventing a lawful burial.

But would make the jury more likely to question how credible her other innocent explanations are.

 

[Clio]

But would make the jury more likely to question how credible her other innocent explanations are.

True. But most of her innocent explanations relate to the aftermath of Becky's death. And that is all to do with perverting the course of justice.

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes, I'm wondering that too.

I took it mean special needs, though I don't hink he has any officially recognised ones and was described by the TA bloke as being one of the brightest in the class. He does talk of difficulties he has though, eg. with remembering days

 

[cottonweaver]

I'm still torn over who killed Becky and who did the dismembering. One minute I think maybe she was plunged into the situation through being there and agreed to cover up as long as he accepted full responsibility if they were caught... then I think of the texts joking about kidnapping and attics, her playing him the "Do you want to hide a body" video and watching horror/vampire movies at exactly the time they had a body in the house and that little smirk she tried to hide when the police interviewer asked "Why Becky?" and think "Nope, she was involved in the killing too, in fact maybe even have instigated it"

ETA he said he was thinking of driving to the sea with the body parts so I think that was one possible long term plan. His plan was to pick them up in a few days and empty his and SH's ISAs to pay off KD. He'd also booked four weeks off work.

RSBM - just trying not to keep doing really long posts
Yes on extent of her involvement in murder I'm still :fence: even though I don't think much of her credibility as a witness to date and her story itself is totally implausible IMO. ( Defendent's often lie for all sorts of reasons and we haven't heard all her evidence yet and most annoyingly can't get to see the Pros questions that often, just her replies. )

The stuff i posted upthread about the cops visiting on 24th Feb and her on the bed not engaging with them at all, I think she was sh@@@ing herself but it doesn't prove to me she killed, cut, packaged etc yet. Certainly not going to dismiss any of these though.

Interested in that 4weeks leave thing - I am sure that i read here, posters speculating that they planned to flee. 4 weeks is a long break, when I read he had informed work and 4 weeks was it way before the suspicion was upon them/game was up? ie. I don't know the date but I was wondering if he wanted to play the grieving step-broth and expected the search to go on for ages?

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes, I'm wondering that too.

Sorry Cherwell, Spec Learning needs.
I say this cause he had an appropriate adult with him in that interview. I don't know if he has had full assessments but his Defence lawyer will be getting those reports if he has them, or getting him evaluated for sure.

 

[ColourPurple]

True. But most of her innocent explanations relate to the aftermath of Becky's death. And that is all to do with perverting the course of justice.

I agree, the big one though is where she was when Becky died . That's the one, that were I on the jury I'd still be struggling with.