Found Deceased UK - Sarah Everard, 33, London - Clapham Common area, 3 March 2021 *Arrests* #10

[Urbanfox1]

If he pleads guilty and there isn’t a long drawn out trial will we still get to see the evidence against him?

Good point. Was about to answer that justice must be seen to be done (which is broadly true and founding legal principle of common law courts) but thinking it through - yes I think can plead guilty and then be remanded by Crown Court (ie Old Bailey) for sentencing. Sentencing will require legal argument to the judge in open court, so i think it is likely the salient evidence will come out as they will argue for max tariff which would require argument over “aggravating” factors (and I hope it is obvious what those might be without spelling out) Again IMO as am reaching back to law school knowledge so would be really interested to know from a practicing criminal U.K. lawyer.

 

[Cannycat]

The head banging isn't some neurological disorder, jesus.

Anyone who works in a UK custody suite will tell you tons of prisoners want to knock themselves out, seem mentally unwell to aid their case, or are in a withdrawal rage, or just want to try and kill themselves somehow will all do exactly the same thing. It is the only way they can injure themselves in a cell!

They will either tie their top around their neck (if not in anti strangulation clothing) or smash their head against the toilet bowl.

Him doing it in custody is pretty irrelevant and genuinely nothing significant at all.

MOO.

theres no way you can say that 100%. Maybe he’s doing it to get the images out of his head. Out of frustration or anything else. We don’t know. JMO

 

[cuecard]

<snipped for focus>

Indeed it does - I thought there were reporting restrictions on this!

Bolded by me -"She calls her boyfriend and stays on the phone to him for around 14 minutes, a court hearing on March 13 of the man accused of her kidnap and murder is told."

Scottish reporting isn't subject to the same laws that are applied in England (we have a different set). So, although the Scottish media may report different things quicker, it usually does not in any way compromise or put a legal case in England in jeopardy.

 

[Mollymay55]

But what would cause SE to go over to the car? I personally, at that time of night, even if I saw hazard lights on, would keep walking. A conversion by him must have been started IMO, to get SE to notice him. I just don’t know what he said to get her attention.

 

[SouthLondon85]

ok not a criminal lawyer but they would need to adduce expert evidence from a mental health expert (eg psychiatrist or psychologist) to show that they did not have mental capacity sufficient to establish intention or mens rea required for murder. I believe then that may result in a not-guilty of murder charge but immediate order of committal to a secure mental institution such as Broadmoor indefinitely I’m going to qualify that with “a best of my knowledge caveat” as criminal lawyer would know the detail better.

short answer to your question is that it would need to be put forward in argument and supported by a suitably qualified expert witness who would be subject to cross examination.

My understanding is that two experts need to agree on the diagnosis of a recognised psychiatric condition. The burden of proof is very, very high for this kind of defence - this is from Wikipedia on the section of English law but a good summary IMHO:

Section 2 of the Homicide Act 1957 states: (1) Where a person kills or is party to a killing of another, he shall not be convicted of murder if he was suffering from an abnormality of mental functioning which -

(a) arose from a medical condition

(b) substantially impaired D's ability to do one or more of the things mentioned in subsection (1A), and

(c) provides an explanation for D's acts and omissions in doing or being a party to the killing.

(1A) Those things are -

(a) to understand the nature of D's conduct;

(b) to form a rational judgment;

(c) to exercise self-control.

Based on this, MOO, he'll never get such a defence to stick, and I doubt his lawyer(s) will even let him try.

 

[MsBetsy]

He could just be a lazy, entitled individual and the armed role comes with too much responsibility ( drug tests etc). My money is on him being very self-interested in everything he does.

Well yeah, especially after committing a murder, I would think. He knew what he was capable of. At that point, being homicidal or suicidal was dangerous for everyone around him. Jmo

 

[PorfiryPetrovitch]

Yes it looks as if some (but not all) of the articles referencing the emails and the Car make and model have been edited to remove those aspects.

 

[Newthoughts]

Unless she is as evil as he seems, I doubt she knew anything about it.

Apologies if this has been answered / discussed as I'm still pages behind in catching up but I'm still very curious about his wife's involvement.

She was arrested at exactly the same time - which seemed really unusual - for assisting an offender. At that point I believe it was still on suspicion of kidnapping rather than murder. All MSM so far says she was 'arrested' not brought in for questioning as a witness.

She also appears to have been released on bail to return to a police station in April rather than just released.

So not clearly proclaimed as innocent and sent home which I'd have expected if there was no known suspicion of involvement.

Arrest at the same time would preclude lying about his whereabouts or providing an alibi as she couldn't have been questioned at that point. No opportunity to lie. Plus isn't there some protection of spouses which means they don't have answer questions about the suspects movements?

Released on bail suggests she is not considered completely innocent either

The only things I can think of are helping hide or dispose of evidence or - and I think this highly unlikely - she was in the car as well.

I'm just curious. I can only think of helping to hide or dispose of evidence.

 

[Finders_Keepers]

I would be really interested to know, from anyone with a legal background, what evidence a defence lawyer would need to produce to claim mental health issues. I would hope it would include evidence from before a crime was committed and not just the reaction of a suspect thereafter....

Massive sliding scale of how a mental health issue could influence a trial, and evidence would vary.

At the most extreme is being mentally unfit to stand trial. Prosecution is brought but the case is dismissed. For something of this nature the suspect is likely in a secure institute anyway due to section.

In the middle you have a reduced charge. Ie murder to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility.

At the bottom end it might be a mitigating factor at sentencing to mean a sentence at the lower end of the tariff.

Defence evidence varies massively at all those levels

 

[Cannycat]

He would be under psychiatric hold if he was displaying anything along those lines. Please stop talking bubbles.

Please stop being so rude unless you were a fly on the wall in his home you have zero knowledge of what he was doing

 

[cuecard]

I'm wondering if Scottish media/law has different guidelines in these situations?

We do. Our reporting isn't subject to the same laws as England. However, while the Scottish media may report different things/release things quicker, it is usually done in a way that does not compromise or jeopardise a legal case that is taking place in England.

 

[ashford5]

Just to clarify the burnt out car:

the only reference to a burnt out car comes from someone who lives close to the old leisure centre and he referred to a car that has been there for a while along with other fly-tipped rubbish.

 

[BuckeyeGal]

Since WC has self-harmed to the point of needing to go to the hospital, why can't he be restrained or placed in a padded cell or some other method to keep him from doing so?

 

[Pinkizzy]

White Astra ? Is this a car evere seen outside his address?

It's a rental car from Dover

 

[canbereached]

JMO to me the only scenario for SE getting into the car would be as follows:

WC: Why are you out here? where have you been? I’m a policeman here’s my badge. (COVID laws introduced)

WC: I have to give you a warning. (Paperwork & fine) Where are you heading? I’ll give you a lift home.

WCs authoritative position was likely conveyed immediately.

 

[MsBetsy]

He would be under psychiatric hold if he was displaying anything along those lines. Please stop talking bubbles.

I hope he is, after two attempts to harm himself.

 

[brewdog]

Just to clarify the burnt out car:

the only reference to a burnt out car comes from someone who lives close to the old leisure centre and he referred to a car that has been there for a while along with other fly-tipped rubbish.

Ah, thank you!

 

[Dinosaursplash]

Please stop being so rude unless you were a fly on the wall in his home you have zero knowledge of what he was doing

No, but I have plenty of experience of custody suites and working with prisoners.

 

[Cannycat]

No, but I have plenty of experience of custody suites and working with prisoners.

That’s fine, but there’s more civil ways of getting a point across than being rude and it Doesn’t make you the fountain of all knowledge.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

theres no way you can say that 100%. Maybe he’s doing it to get the images out of his head. Out of frustration or anything else. We don’t know. JMO

You’re right. We don’t know. I think he’s mad at himself for getting caught and now he’s gotta face jail justice once he gets released into gen pop. He’s scared s***less. He might do anything to stay under suicide watch where he’s safe from inmates who would love to tear him to pieces. Or...make him their *advertiser censored*!