UPDATE Identity Confirmed As Caylee 12-19-2008 ME Info

[snoelle1]

So here's my question...According to the ME, Caylee's death was classified as a homicide. If there was no tissue left, no trauma to the bones, and toxicology may not be able to confirm what/if any chemicals or toxins are present, what convinced the ME that it was a homicide? Even if it was determined that the casue of death was by other than natural means, (ie drowning, suffocation, poisioning) how is the ME able to determine that such a cause was not accidental? I just wonder what the ME and LE have that makes them confident in announcing that Caylee's death was a homicide. Any thoughts?

 

[gardenhart]

I know I am playing Devils advocate, but if the death was accidental, or natural. Disposing of the body, and not contacting LE does not equal Murder 1.

I'm sorry, but you're flat out wrong about that. Scott Peterson, to cite just one case where no cause of death could be proved, wouldn't be sitting on death row right now if what you say is correct.

Even if the state has no other evidence proving cause of death, I'm sure the other circumstances, including hiding the body until it was too late to determine cause of death, will weigh very heavily with the jury. I know it would me if I was a juror.

You know, playing devil's advocate means you don't agree with the argument you're making but are simply making it for the sake of argument. Just FYI.

 

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

From what we heard today, there is no confirmation of Duct tape on the child.

Nobody (besides KC) knows what happened. But I do think the Defense got a lot of information today to raise reasonable doubt. Even if it was just KC disposing of the body. They didn't announce anything that reflected abuse or harm to the child. I am waiting on toxicology to demonize KC. With only bones and no soft tissue, I hope they can conduct a complete toxicology but I do not know if that is possible.

Right now I am seeing a very young mother scared to contact police and LYING to cover up her mistake in not contacting them.

a MISTAKE is neglecting to brush your 2 year old's teeth before bed because they fell asleep and you didn't want to wake them back up... and having them end up with a mouth full of cavities at the next dentist visit.
NOT OD'ing them when you're trying to sedate them so you can can go clubbing or sleep over at your boyfriends apartment.

casey did ANYTHING in her power to pawn caylee off every chance she got... she even went as far as making up bogus jobs so she could get someone else to watch her... and when they caught on to her, nobody wanted to babysit anymore... so she goes and *allegedly* doses her to get her to pass out.. why am i not seeing a "mistake" here??? this was disgusting and PREMEDITATED.... NOT an "oopsie"
if my 2 year old daughter had an accident... or heck.. if i somehow even managed to kill her by letting her swallow too much toothpaste... ??? the FIRST thing i would be doing is calling 911. NOT hosing her down with bug spray, bagging her up and stuffing her in my trunk until she starts to stink.

and i'm not buying the "young" mother thing... i had 3 kids by the age of 25.. and will have 4 by 29.... parenting skill have nothing to do with age..

i hope that if she doesn't get the DP that they at least remove all of her reproductive organs

 

[Torrie]

Baez said that Casey says she didn't do it and there is so much we don't know about that will come out at trial...now what???!!!! Why wait until trial? Sheeeeesh....

That's funny...I distinctly remember CA saying that once Caylee was found, KC could tell everything, and everyone would understand. I'm still not understanding, and KCs still not talking....:liar:

 

[scandi]

The skeleton not showing trauma could mean the whole scenario was even more heinous and planned. I'll never believe that Caylee accidentally drowned in the pool. There was not enough time according to pings and Casey being at the home for that to happen, and she could have called 911 to try and revive Caylee. Any true accident would have been much easier to explain. I haven't listened to the press conference, but I'm wondering if it was said that the skeleton had no soft tissue. Maybe the skull did still have some connective tissue if there was duct tape. It's too bad Caylee wasn't found in August when maybe some tissue was left that could have shown bruising around the face and neck.

Hi Txsvicki,

This has been driving me nuts since the presser today, the no soft tissue issue.

For one thing Dr G mentioned there was hair. If it was still on the skull which I assume it was, there would have to be some hardened tissue to bond the hair to the skull, right? If there was no trauma to the head the hairs would be in place and intact with root and all.

And what I think is Dr G was very careful in her wording. She mentioned the word skeleton or skeletonized to describe the remains and no soft tissue on that. What could be possible is there was soft tissue matter or residue on the sticky side of the tape - melded to it. And the tape stayed in place because it was wrapped all the way around the head, also attached to the hair and so it stayed in place.

What do you thinK?

 

[Nedthan Johns]

They can determine that because of the manner in which and where they found the body. The fact that she was deposited in a trash bag and dumped and the fact that Casey has claimed she never "accidently" did anything to Casey. Then there is nothing accidental about the crime, therefore you are left with Homicide.

My personal thoughts are and I am changing my view here a bit. Leonard P. said she was found with a bathing suit at least that is what I heard last night on NG. I believe Casey drowned her. I believe she tried to make it look like a kidnapping by putting the tape around her mouth and head. Leonard said he believed differently. The fact that Cindy noticed the ladder was down tips us off that Caylee was in that pool when they were so aware that they always put the ladder up.

 

[kiki the parrot]

It is clear now that the rumor about duct tape stuck to her mouth in not true. It would have come off with the tissue and would not have miraculously reattached itself to the bare bone that was found. There MIGHT have been other duct tape in the bag, near the bag, or near the skull but unless it was put onto the skull AFTER the tissue deteriorated away from the skull, it was NOT over her mouth. RUMORS are not true, just as the RUMOR regarding the name of the meter reader was not true.

ITA And the rumors have been rampant. What is also clear though is neither does it matters what additional evidence some may be presented with (bathing suit, or even future reports that may point away from homicide eg) about COD as their minds have long been made up. I am eager to learn more specifically on what basis ME ruled a homicide... as while KC's conduct in the weeks following her child's death is for most of us incomprehensible, it doesn't prove it was premeditated nor even necessarily an intentional act. KC was, and continues to be, her very own worst enemy. JMO

 

[cocoamom]

They have duct tape around the mouth/head!! They may even have it around arms/legs/hands, etc. I heard a plastic bag was duct taped over the head - none of these are accidental...I suspect that Dr. G's body language and downcast eyes during the comments about awaiting toxicology spoke volumes.

Perhaps there will be large levels of a chemical in/on the bag, clothing/sheet or whatever in the bag, etc. The duct tape wound so tightly around the mouth and head that it stayed there for 6 months tells me there was anger/frustration involved.

If an accident happened with my child, even if I had decided to hide the body, I would have been gentle, pampering, etc. Duct taping, cramming in a garbage bag and tossing off the side of the road doesn't show "accident" to me, it shows lack of caring, treating like garbage...

Fry in He## Casey!

 

[Nedthan Johns]

The next question is what is next for Casey? Any thoughts on what they found?

I think they may link the trash bag to the home, but not the tape. I think they may not find fingerprints on the bag or tape. I believe whatever Caylee was wrapped in or clothed in was not the last thing GP saw her in. I believe a personal artifact like the book or stuffed animal was found with Casey that will link directly back to the house. I really think the meter man was the strangest thing about this story but perhaps we are all just becoming more aware of our surroundings and if so, what a great thing that he did follow up on his hunch. still wierd though, really wierd. Anyhow those are my hunches. I think Casey used Cholorform to put Caylee out when she would want to go out and simply left Caylee in the trunk. I think Caylee has been abused like this from birth.

 

[TraceyLeigh]

I cannot believe some of the things I am reading here after everything that has come out over the past 6 months. I am stunned.

 

[MaryAnn]

I love LP but he keeps on insisting that it was an accident and then KC panicked. I pretty much can go with everything LP says but not this. I believe KC intentionally killed Caylee, in fact there is no doubt in my mind it was intentional. I'm so glad the LE has determined it was a homicide. Even if it was an accident, who proceeds to duck tape their childs head and then dispose of them in the forest.

Why are they being so kind to her in Jail? Makes my stomach turn. She's getting personal visits from the Pastor, doesn't he have better things to do. He's wasting his time with that piece of trash, nothing will change KC. I say lock her in her cell, no commissary menu or goodiess and then throw her out with the other inmates in the yard. Maybe then justice might possibly be served!!! Anyone who thinks she's innocent needs a labatomy

 

[loneleigh2]

I agree the death was planned, whether it was in water, she was drugged.... Caylee was definitely murdered. With all of the circumstantial evidence involved, KC will be convicted.
I would be so pissed if she walked because "the LE botched the case"

 

[natsound]

I love LP but he keeps on insisting that it was an accident and then KC panicked. I pretty much can go with everything LP says but not this. I believe KC intentionally killed Caylee, in fact there is no doubt in my mind it was intentional. I'm so glad the LE has determined it was a homicide. Even if it was an accident, who proceeds to duck tape their childs head and then dispose of them in the forest.

Why are they being so kind to her in Jail? Makes my stomach turn. She's getting personal visits from the Pastor, doesn't he have better things to do. He's wasting his time with that piece of trash, nothing will change KC. I say lock her in her cell, no commissary menu or goodiess and then throw her out with the other inmates in the yard. Maybe then justice might possibly be served!!! Anyone who thinks she's innocent needs a labatomy

Respectfully, how can you go with anything LP says? He's been wrong just about every time. He said the dumpster would play a huge role in this, he said Caylee's body was at the bottom of the Econ River, he told a sleuther over the phone that Caylee's body had been found, but this was a week or two before the meter reader found the skull. I've decided to tune him out.. he just guesses.

Cause of death: most likely chloroform, but could be asphyxiation from the duct tape applied afterward.

 

[Broderick]

I cannot believe some of the things I am reading here after everything that has come out over the past 6 months. I am stunned.

I just shake my head.

 

[impatientredhead]

a MISTAKE is neglecting to brush your 2 year old's teeth before bed because they fell asleep and you didn't want to wake them back up... and having them end up with a mouth full of cavities at the next dentist visit.
NOT OD'ing them when you're trying to sedate them so you can can go clubbing or sleep over at your boyfriends apartment.

casey did ANYTHING in her power to pawn caylee off every chance she got... she even went as far as making up bogus jobs so she could get someone else to watch her... and when they caught on to her, nobody wanted to babysit anymore... so she goes and *allegedly* doses her to get her to pass out.. why am i not seeing a "mistake" here??? this was disgusting and PREMEDITATED.... NOT an "oopsie"
if my 2 year old daughter had an accident... or heck.. if i somehow even managed to kill her by letting her swallow too much toothpaste... ??? the FIRST thing i would be doing is calling 911. NOT hosing her down with bug spray, bagging her up and stuffing her in my trunk until she starts to stink.

and i'm not buying the "young" mother thing... i had 3 kids by the age of 25.. and will have 4 by 29.... parenting skill have nothing to do with age..

i hope that if she doesn't get the DP that they at least remove all of her reproductive organs

not to mention this "young" mother has had chance after chance after chance to say "you are right, i wasn't watching and _____________ happened, let me show you where she is"

The police offered her that chance. The state has offered some really low sentences. If the child had truly drown and she had told them on July 16th she MIGHT have still been able to get an even better offer (before she lied and lied and lied and pissed everyone off).

This was no accident. At a minimum she suffocated that child and threw her out like a piece of unwanted garbage. And now will try to benefit from that action because the flesh that would prove her crimes has rotted away and been eaten by field animals. She makes me ill.

 

[scandi]

I am not so cerain that the duct tape was not where rumor has placed it. Dr. G declarred that it was a Homicide based in large part on the state, condition and positioning of the remains and the immediate scene. Something about the lay out of the body told her that this was a very deliberate and heinous act, and not an accident or an improper disposal of human remains. About the only thing that we have heard so far, that would rise to that standard would be some form of obvious restraint, such as duct tape across the face.

Hi Faefrost,

Interesting!~ If indeed there was tape wrapped around the head and over the mouth area, I think Dr G would be able to determine if it was placed there pre or post mortem {sp}.

If placed there pre-mortem it would indicate a simply awful situation for little Caylee which might be a factor in determining it was a homicide.

I think the tape over the mouth area was loosened and held in place by the hair on the skull. I think this because of loose teeth found around in the dirt.

I also find it odd that there were teeth found separately, because normally they would stay in the skull, right? If there was no trauma to the skull then how were the teeth loosened? I don't think animals could do that, but then again maybe they could. xox

 

[impatientredhead]

Hi Txsvicki,

This has been driving me nuts since the presser today, the no soft tissue issue.

For one thing Dr G mentioned there was hair. If it was still on the skull which I assume it was, there would have to be some hardened tissue to bond the hair to the skull, right? If there was no trauma to the head the hairs would be in place and intact with root and all.

And what I think is Dr G was very careful in her wording. She mentioned the word skeleton or skeletonized to describe the remains and no soft tissue on that. What could be possible is there was soft tissue matter or residue on the sticky side of the tape - melded to it. And the tape stayed in place because it was wrapped all the way around the head, also attached to the hair and so it stayed in place.

What do you thinK?

Soft tissue after six months never made any sense to me at all. The hair would have still been in the bag as it does decay very very slowly. If the tape was wrapped around her head it could have still been "in place" not to mention if she was able to get her mouth partially open and it was more its final resting place was more gag like, her hair would be imbedded in it and the tape would be wedged between her jaw. The ME did not make a statement about the existence of tape around her skull or the lack there of.

 

[butwhatif?]

So here's my question...According to the ME, Caylee's death was classified as a homicide. If there was no tissue left, no trauma to the bones, and toxicology may not be able to confirm what/if any chemicals or toxins are present, what convinced the ME that it was a homicide? Even if it was determined that the casue of death was by other than natural means, (ie drowning, suffocation, poisioning) how is the ME able to determine that such a cause was not accidental? I just wonder what the ME and LE have that makes them confident in announcing that Caylee's death was a homicide. Any thoughts?

She said that she had come to that conclusion based on physical examination of the remains, evidence at the crime scene, and other circumstantial evidence.
They are allowed to take these other things into consideration when making the determination of COD. Its not soley based on the physical examination by the ME.

 

[SoCalSleuth]

So here's my question...According to the ME, Caylee's death was classified as a homicide. If there was no tissue left, no trauma to the bones, and toxicology may not be able to confirm what/if any chemicals or toxins are present, what convinced the ME that it was a homicide? Even if it was determined that the casue of death was by other than natural means, (ie drowning, suffocation, poisioning) how is the ME able to determine that such a cause was not accidental? I just wonder what the ME and LE have that makes them confident in announcing that Caylee's death was a homicide. Any thoughts?

One doesn't normally find an accidental death victim with duct tape wrapped around its mouth and skull.

 

[simonsmom]

Now that it is confirmed I wish they would stop calling her "three year old Caylee". She did not get to live three years on this earth. She was two when her mother ended her life.