UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #3

[omegagal]

Josh Powell Very Intelligent / Halted Language (OMG that is my X to a T as well)

http://connect2utah.com/content/news/story?cid=67802

 

[cleo612]

Where does Josh's sister live--the one where the little boys and Josh have been staying? Do we know?

(Gosh, I hate to even be thinking what I am thinking right now.)

 

[omegagal]

I think this is how it happened also....
other than we don’t know if they were Susan’s pills…
they could have been his!

Psychopath's do not medicate.... They do not want any changes in their otherwise "perfect" selves.

Another great book People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck on human evil and malignant narcissisim for those interested in learning more about narcissism and evil...

 

[SusanB]

Where does Josh's sister live--the one where the little boys and Josh have been staying? Do we know?

(Gosh, I hate to even be thinking what I am thinking right now.)

Cleo, I'm right there w/ you ! someone know where they live???

 

[harleysnana]

It is just the next suburb over from West Valley. Just a bit to the south. I work in West Valley and sometimes get take out in West Jordan. I get there easily within 10 minutes in decent traffic.

Here is a map that show how close.

 

[harleysnana]

Psychopath's do not medicate.... They do not want any changes in their otherwise "perfect" selves.

IMO
Maybe not as prescribed.

 

[sunflowerchick]

How far from West Valley? Or is it like the other side of the state?

Hi everyone! So I work with someone who lives in the apartment complex where the murder suicudes took place, and we were just discussing it. It is apparently a family with 2 adults and 2 children, but it isn't tied to this case I don't think. Rumors around the complex are that this was an abusive relationship as well, and that someone called police because they were concerned that the family hadn't been seen in a while.

With regard to the conversations about LDS Bishops, these are regular men with families and such who haven't studied in any college or school to be a bishop. They hold regular everyday 9 to 5 jobs. They just simply must be "chosen and called", and then ordained as a bishop. They are not paid for what they do, and they completely volunteer their time for their calling.

In my own experiences, when I was facing difficulty with my ex-husband, the bishop referred us to a professional marriage counselor and the church helped to cover the cost since we were unable to. At no time did he encourage me to stay in an abusive situation. Quite the opposite, the church provided the resources with which to leave.

 

[Fairy1]

I could not tell you what religion Scott Peterson, Jason Young, Drew
Peterson, Craig Stebic, or Brad Cooper are, or if they were counseled by
their Bishop, Priest, or private counselor, and IMO it doesn't matter.

Some Bishops, Priest, and private counselors may have suggested
for their wives to stick it out and work on their marriages too.

I just think it's sad that when other cases like this happen
we don't hash their religion ... it seems to only be a problem when they
are LDS.

A lot of people, in a lot of different religions have problems with abuse,
drugs, *advertiser censored* etc.
…. not just Mormons.

At this point we don’t even know if Josh was an active Mormon,
or if they even went to be counseled by their Bishop or anyone else
for that matter.

I just see another psychopath man who probably killed his wife.

I really don't believe it's a religion issue. Let's face it, Utah is predominantly LDS and Susan and Josh Powell, and their respective families, are LDS. We know that Susan was very active in her church and we know that she addressed her marriage issues there.

We're simply discussing the facts that we have here and some posters have first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the LDS church. It is what it is.

 

[harleysnana]

Where does Josh's sister live--the one where the little boys and Josh have been staying? Do we know?

(Gosh, I hate to even be thinking what I am thinking right now.)

I'm sick....
I just did a white pages look up and there is a Kirk Graves
that lives in West Jordan.

 

[sunflowerchick]

I'm sick....
I just did a white pages look up and there is a Kirk Graves
that lives in West Jordan.

People in the complex are saying that this may have occurred days ago, so I doubt this is related.

 

[mayelf]

I noticed the brother spoke of Josh as being controlling but also said to not overuse the word.

Personal experience, not for everyone but if it has any relevance at all I'm going to throw it out there, because I saw so much talk about abusive relationships I'll give my take on it from a lesser abusive person I was partnered with a long time ago -

When I talked to my family about getting out of an abusive relationship because it was controlling. They did not support me but only because they didn't understand. I didn't understand it. The support I needed was someone to lean on and truly "support" me. I don't think my family had a clue that was what I needed. If I let go of this verbally abusive person who already had my life supported I didn't have anywhere to land. I would have fallen through the Earth. When he started to be physical was when I started to grasp the severity. I was also convinced that he blacked out when he raged at me. I was convinced he did not mean to do the things he did because he had a problem and wouldn't be able to remember. Clearly BS now. Clearly an excuse that I made up in my head for him, to make it okay. Because I just needed it to make sense. When it was the mental abuse I remember just thinking it was because I wasn't 'good' and 'worth anything'.

If someone controls every aspect of your life and also is manipulative in doing so, how do you tell people? How do you tell your family? It's IMPOSSIBLE. Church or no church, it's embarrassing, it feels wrong, it feels like it's a doable life. It's too hard to get out, not only do you know it, but in my situation at least, the person who did the controlling told me every day in ways I can't explain that I would not be able to live without him. I did not believe I could be self reliant. It feels awful and I had the worse self esteem EVER while I was being controlled by another person. And not ONLY by the X, but before them I was always controlled by my parents so I had no idea what independence was. I had never tried to have it before.

I think it's absolutely wrong to not be independent. If you are reading this and you know you have to depend on someone else to do whatever then you should really really do the hardest thing you will ever do and take your independence. Be independent and learn how to be independent which I PROMISE is the hardest thing to do in life, but it's by far the most rewarding thing you could ever do in your entire life. I would break down and become SEVERELY depressed when I couldn't start a lawnmower. But now, I can't start my lawnmower (its a rusty broke-down dumb thing) but I know I can get a friend's help and still I'm independent. I decide how loud I talk. I decide where my TV goes in my house. I decide if I'm going to compromise with another person. And I just think it's crucial that every human being understands every human being deserves the right to do what they need to do. (speaking only of HEALTHY needs)


And YES they really do say things like "Do you really think the Judge would ever let you have your child with No money and No place to live?" "I'm going to take our child and you will never see him again if you...(fill in blank)" They really do play every card they can to make it seem impossible to your self esteem that you could really succeed in a life without them.

I still deal with this person since we have a child together, but luckily the finalization of court really helped.

eta
I think it's basically the UNKNOWN factor that is the scariest factor of it all. According to his threats, I should be living a life of hell someplace not knowing where my son is, as the court appointed him since he was going to make up lies that I did so and so, and blah blah. It's really just threats because I have full custody of our son and am living very content. But I believed every single thing he said could come true. I also believed he was some sort of psychopath at one point. Now I'm just happy that things worked out and no one is dead in a ditch.

I'm not saying Josh in this case caused harm to his wife. I don't know that. I just know that it is possible that abuse can be overlooked by family and friends and churches and be labeled a "dispute" or "disagreement".

 

[omegagal]

I really don't believe it's a religion issue. Let's face it, Utah is predominantly LDS and Susan and Josh Powell, and their respective families, are LDS. We know that Susan was very active in her church and we know that she addressed her marriage issues there.

We're simply discussing the facts that we have here and some posters have first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the LDS church. It is what it is.

Yes, I'm sure their Mormon lifestyle of a patriarchal based religion where men are told they "can be Gods" and where women drop out of college to allow their husbands to continue their educations while women are expected to stay at home and crochet (okay how many 28 year old non LDS woman out there crochet, grow vegetables, can and bake their own bread??) has nothing to do with any of this.......

Of course it has something to do with it... any psychologist will tell you someone whose entire life revolves around their religion will be effected by the cultural side of it as well....

As Fairy1 says, It is what it is...

 

[kiki the parrot]

My theory of what happened is based on what I have read, seen and heard so far on this case as well as personal experiences in the church and with a psychopath. Any licensed clinicians with additional experience with psychopaths, narcissists and abuse please feel free to chime in.

Background: I think around the time Susan had her first baby things she only barely noticed in Josh's personality started becoming more distinct. The control and power issues were now at full force. (Someone on the earlier news report said Susan and Josh seemed to be doing well and were happy when they first moved to the area 5 years ago)
One of the first things an abuser will do is take the woman away from her support system (family in Washington) He has family in Utah. Obviously they did not move there because he had this wonderful, high paying career waiting for him. What he didn't expect is that Susan was strong and well liked and would develop a support system in her new community. It must have driven him wild to see how competent and happy she could find herself, especially without him being the reason for her happiness. After all she was merely an extension of himself as were "his" children.

Over the last couple of months: The power and control issues were getting worse and worse. Susan had made a couple of very smart moves. She had gotten a decent job. Josh had been telling her for some time that if she left, she would never be able to support herself. He probably said "Look at me, I can't even handle a full time job. Do you think a judge is ever going to give you enough support that you could live off it?" The psychopath always underestimates his victim. They may have started out with marital counseling but more than likely the counselor (probably from LDS Family Services) realized after a few interviews, it was an abuse issue not a marital issue. That means that Susan was probably in counseling with a private counselor as well as her bishop. Psychopaths never subcomb to treatment. After all they are smarter and wiser than any professional counselor so Josh would never see a counselor or admit the abuse. Susan was probably put on either anti-depressants, anti-anxiety or sleeping pills or some combination of these. This would give Josh the opportunity to start telling people that Susan "wasn't right" or that she was "unstable". He would love to believe that but no one else was really buying into it. So things started getting worse and worse for Josh. She had to be stopped.

Currently: I think that Susan and Josh had an enormous fight or "power struggle" Saturday night or Sunday morning before church. Josh said he wasn't going to church, Susan went. Her friend Kriisi (sp?) said she didn't see Susan at church but saw her when walking home. I bet Susan was in the bishop's office telling him what had just happened. You DO see your best friends during church at least some time during the 3 hours you attend. Josh knowing his time was about out, made a plan. While Susan was at church, he took Susan's entire bottle of sleeping pills and crushed them, planning to put them in her food at dinner, then leaving with the boys for sledding to come home to find that Susan had killed herself with an overdose of sleeping pills. His plan backfired because as usual Susan messed with the plan. Instead Susan invited someone to come over after church for an early dinner. This drove Josh nuts as he had already crushed all the pills. What if Susan saw all of her pills missing???? So Josh went along with the plan. Very interesting how he didn't serve a casserole but make individual "pancakes" and scrambled eggs. I'll bet you anything that you can not taste medication in eggs or perhaps juice. Then he has to keep checking on her during dinner. This is the point where he starts getting schizoid because of the change of plans. He tells her friend that he's taking the boys sledding to show he's going to be out of the house with the boys for a while hoping that will cover his butte and get her to leave. Susan starts feeling poorly and needs to lie down. The friend leaves and he takes the boys out for a while to let his poor wife die in bed, figuring when he gets home he can put the bottle next to her bed. Only instead, when he left Susan got up out of bed, making it to the living room collapses on the floor where she proceeds to foam at the mouth or vomit. When he comes home he finds her like this. I think he's not the "good dad" as people make him out to be. Psychopaths are too lazy to be good parents. They are controlling parents. Josh would have put the kids either back in the car right away (oldest one up front as he can talk) or put them in a room by themselves while he put Susan in the van and started to clean up. He probably got all that together by 12:30. The oldest child must have known that Susan was in the back of the van, though and probably asked his dad some good questions. (that child and DNA are going to be Susan's saving grace) I think since Josh told reporters he was south and then west of SLC that Josh actually went just the opposite way, either north or east. I also think he pulled off on the side of the road and the oldest child saw "woods" or "trees" in the head lights. Not a forest, not a desert, not a heavy snowstorm but "woods/trees". Meanwhile Josh came around to the back of the van and took Susan's body out and either (must still be an active suicide plan) put her in a large body of water near a bridge or even worst put her in a sewer hole. I do think he's smart and just playing dumb. But I don't think he's brilliant and he's certainly no where near as brilliant as he thinks he is.

Also, I agree with the lip thing. It's almost a smirk of contempt for LE and the press. When he says I just want to find her, I hear him saying "and you won't find her". Listen and watch that interview by his car again. Seems like he's just evil and taunting the press.

Please tell me this was posted previously... that, or I was having a religious premonition lolol... :crazy: :waitasec:

Psychopaths never subcomb to treatment. After all they are smarter and wiser than any professional counselor so Josh would never see a counselor or admit the abuse.

Psychopath's do not medicate.... They do not want any changes in their otherwise "perfect" selves.

Another great book People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck on human evil and malignant narcissisim for those interested in learning more about narcissism and evil...

Not sure whether he was strictly NPD or possibly sociopath, but believe me when I tell you... they will manipulate every intervention they are offered.

Dr. Peck's book is an eye-opener. Dr. Sam Vaknin's "Malignant Self-Love" is also a great study on pathological narcissism. JMO

arrot:

 

[omegagal]

Please tell me this was posted previously... that, or I was having a religious premonition lolol... :crazy: :waitasec:





Not sure whether he was strictly NPD or possibly sociopath, but believe me when I tell you... they will manipulate every intervention they are offered.

Dr. Peck's book is an eye-opener. Dr. Sam Vaknin's "Malignant Self-Love" is also a great study on pathological narcissism. JMO

arrot:

Yes, previously posted as someone wanted to know my previous discussion on background. Good find on Sam Vadkin. There is a great video with Sam Vadkin in "I, Psychopath" on the following website

http://unrighteous-dominion.com

 

[Fairy1]

Yes, I'm sure their Mormon lifestyle of a patriarchal based religion where men are told they "can be Gods" and where woman drop out of college to allow their husbands to continue their educations while woman are expected to stay at home and crochet (okay how many 28 year old non LDS woman out there crochet, grow vegetables, can and bake their own bread??) has nothing to do with any of this.......

Of course it has something to do with... any psychologist will tell you someone whose entire life revolves around their religion will be effected by the cultural side of it as well....

As Fairy1 says, It is what it is...

That's so funny! I actually do crochet and grow my own vegetables - tho I stopped baking bread long ago! :crazy: I also smoke and drink and work full-time and my DH is not controlling - nor can I be controlled.

That being said....while my ex was not controlling, per se, he did categorically destroy my life via drinking and gambling. It took me a looooong time to leave - much longer than anyone who knows me would have thought. I had two babies and no where really to go. I did tell my family, with whom I was very close. But they loved him and didn't want to believe it was as bad as it was. For the most part, they advised me to stay. But I didn't and eventually, they saw why.

We're not LDS - or anything else, but that's the way it went down. I don't want to say my loving family didn't support me, but it did take a while....

Seeing Susan's family today at the PC was difficult. They are obviously in pain and so worried. As I said before, I doubt anyone in Susan's life ever imagined Josh would kill her, but it seems plenty of people knew there were serious problems in the marriage. IMO, no amount of any religion can fix some things.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Hi everyone! So I work with someone who lives in the apartment complex where the murder suicudes took place, and we were just discussing it. It is apparently a family with 2 adults and 2 children, but it isn't tied to this case I don't think. Rumors around the complex are that this was an abusive relationship as well, and that someone called police because they were concerned that the family hadn't been seen in a while.

With regard to the conversations about LDS Bishops, these are regular men with families and such who haven't studied in any college or school to be a bishop. They hold regular everyday 9 to 5 jobs. They just simply must be "chosen and called", and then ordained as a bishop. They are not paid for what they do, and they completely volunteer their time for their calling.

In my own experiences, when I was facing difficulty with my ex-husband, the bishop referred us to a professional marriage counselor and the church helped to cover the cost since we were unable to. At no time did he encourage me to stay in an abusive situation. Quite the opposite, the church provided the resources with which to leave.

(bbm) This is encouraging to hear, as I posted it is only "some" churches which fail to address the issue or respond to the cries for help appropriately and I'm relieved and grateful that you were truly helped in a time of need.

I could not tell you what religion Scott Peterson, Jason Young, Drew
Peterson, Craig Stebic, or Brad Cooper are, or if they were counseled by
their Bishop, Priest, or private counselor, and IMO it doesn't matter.

Some Bishops, Priest, and private counselors may have suggested
for their wives to stick it out and work on their marriages too.

I just think it's sad that when other cases like this happen
we don't hash their religion ... it seems to only be a problem when they
are LDS.

A lot of people, in a lot of different religions have problems with abuse,
drugs, *advertiser censored* etc.
…. not just Mormons.

At this point we don’t even know if Josh was an active Mormon,
or if they even went to be counseled by their Bishop or anyone else
for that matter.

I just see another psychopath man who probably killed his wife.

IB]I really don't believe it's a religion issue[/B]. Let's face it, Utah is predominantly LDS and Susan and Josh Powell, and their respective families, are LDS. We know that Susan was very active in her church and we know that she addressed her marriage issues there.

We're simply discussing the facts that we have here and some posters have first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the LDS church. It is what it is.

AFAIC religion is just another tool in a manipulator's "repertoire," or weapon in the abuser's "arsenal." I was clear to emphasize right off the bat that my own observations weren't exclusive to any one particular faith but I was speaking collectively. I have not noticed anyone bashing. JMO

arrot:

 

[Kimster]

Mayelf, I am so glad you are with us to share your story and give hope to someone who might need that bump to move forward like you did! :blowkiss:


As for the Mormon part...my mom's family were all Mormons and I am not at all. My family history goes back to when Joseph Smith was alive and yes, some of my ancestors were polygamists back in the 1800s. However, there isn't one person in my family history who believed that abuse was allowed. NEVER. In fact, I was told by my grandparents never to let a man hit me - EVER.

I think abusers will use whatever means they can to make excuses for their behavior. Religion would be just one excuse.

 

[Melanie]

Psychopath's do not medicate.... They do not want any changes in their otherwise "perfect" selves.

Another great book People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck on human evil and malignant narcissisim for those interested in learning more about narcissism and evil...

Bingo. Didn't Scott Peterson say in a televised interview - "I don't use drugs, I don't even take asprin" -- something to that effect. I don't have a link, but that's what my memory is telling me.

Mel

 

[Steely Dan]

And not too long ago a report came out that showed Utah had the highest number of paid online *advertiser censored* subscriptions. It might very well be true, but many folks just laughed it off saying it just showed most Utahn's were to naive to know you can get it for free - so they figure the numbers might not be all that accurate.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...iser censored*-subscriptions-report-says.html

Here's the actual report; http://people.hbs.edu/bedelman/papers/redlightstates.pdf

IMO, sexual urges are let out one way or another. Repression makes wanting all the more necessary. :twocents:

This is very true! Many many times when the local news stations are showing a story about someone i.e. house fire, illness, accident etc, they're somehow able to put a slant on it to show if the people are Mormon or not and actually it seems to me that when they're showing someone to try and get them some support, the people are generally Mormon. dh does not watch certain news channels because they are so slanted towards Mormon issues where if something bad happens and the person who did it is Mormon, the story doesn't get covered.

VB

With all due respect it seems the LDS covers up a lot of stuff about Joseph Smith too. The LDS seems, IMO, to play down JS and focus more on Brigham Young.

I live a stones throw away from Palmyra where the Angel Moroni told Joseph Smith of the solid gold plates buried 1400 years ago under a rock on a nearby hillside. Moroni instructed Joseph to never show these plates to anyone and it was from these solid gold plates that he was able to write the Book of Mormon.

Every year they have the Hill Cumorah Pageant. I've never gone but I might in 2010. I think it would be interesting.

http://www.hillcumorah.org/Pageant/Program.aspx

 

[Kimster]

Steely Dan, what you wrote is interesting and I'll bet we could have fun discussing that topic. However, we aren't to discuss religions on WS due to MAJOR problems in the past. I think we used to even have a religion forum way back when that was shut down. Just letting you know before the thread gets too far off topic.