UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #5

[Curious Me]

Seems like there's division in that we have the

PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN SEARCHING
VS
PEOPLE WHO THINK SEARCHING IS USELESS

Really it is hard to say why searching in this case doesn't seem to be promoted more by LE, the family and friends, the church. I just think it is a shame to not look and wait for Spring time.

 

[Doctorwoof]

Here is something that was just posted by someone commenting on a story in the Salt Lake Tribune:

“I posted earlier today on pg. 24 that my better half, which is my fiance, told me something I didn't know about. She called me on her lunch break today to tell me that one of the women she works with has a daughter that works at the same "Wells Fargo" office that Susan worked at & apparently Josh made a "unscheduled" visit there on Friday before he went to his house where the press was camped out waiting for him & demanded to know who Susan was "e-mailing" about her problems & demanded to see the e-mails she sent & the police were called & he was "escorted" from the building.”

Let me reiterate, this was posted by someone commenting on a message board. The SlTrib never mentioned this in any article. So take it with a large grain of salt.

In fact after rereading the post I am sure it’s a hoax but I’ll let you decide.

 

[crocus]

Wow.

I just don't know what to say to some of this.

What is practical is raising your kids, or being a good husband. That's my practical, my friend. If it was my neighbor, or my sister, then it might be different. But it's not. I spent two hours tonight helping my son with his homework. I sat through Finding Nemo for the twentieth time this evening with my little girl. That's practical. Maybe you and I have different priorities. Who knows? If Susan was in a cave somewhere, running out of food and water, then it might be a different story. But if it comes down to a choice of looking for a body some dumbass selfishly dumped in the desert somewhere, or helping my son with is long division - well, the world will be a better place with the long division.

You seem to be a wonderful family person. Kudos to you.

Your priorities in your post are, well, everyday. Been there, done that. Guess that makes us both practical, my friend.

The correlation, though, stops there. Everyday family life and what turmoil a family goes through when a loved one is missing are two very distinctive, different things.

 

[AlexisFresca]

(bbm) You've totally misconstrued my point. Sounding like SP, I've "villified neighbors and friends because they won't confront a very likely murderer?" How about just not help him leave, that works. How about maintain their distance from this "very likely murderer" vs dashing over w the Welcome Wagon to rush to this "very likely wife murderer's" aid. That works too. If it's "courage" they lack and no one in the church, or leadership or any of the people that were there assisting him wants to stop pretending there's no giant elephant in the room, maybe just stop coddling, catering to or colaboring w this "very likely murderer." Afterall, they shouldn't be there at all if they're so fearful of becoming his next "very likely victim!"

arrot:

::: snipped for length :::

I don't know. We are also told that if your enemy hungers, give him food. If your enemy thirsts, give him drink. Is that the same principal as, 'If your enemy needs help moving, help him move'? :::shrugs:::

 

[AlexisFresca]

[COLOR="SeaGreen[I]"]::: snipped for length :::[/I]
I'm sorry, you've totally lost me w Tara and Charlie... No really. N/M... obviously I'm neither deep nor Christlike enough.

arrot:

The Tori Stafford case, Tara McDonald being her mom. People were judging her left and right after her pressers. Why did she say that? Did she really think that comment would help? Why isn't she mentioning this or such and such? She looked stoned. She and Rodney should not have brought up such and such. It didn't matter what the woman said, it was deemed wrong. It didn't matter what she didn't say, it was deemed wrong.

 

[lemonmoussetart]

Sorry you feel that way.

I was a little surprised at people taking anything I said as that I was "SO concerned about Josh, but what about Susan?" That's just silly.

Look, there will always be a mob mentality in this type of thing. I get that. I'm proudly on the fringe of that mob. But if throwing out an occasional bit of perspective disingratiates one's self from the mob - well, then maybe the problem is with the mob.

Here are some facts:

1) No one knows within two hundred miles where Susan might be;

2) No one can give a single bit of evidence that she is alive;

3) The police, with all the inside, intimate information they have on the situation are not doing any searching;

4) Susan's family, as broken-hearted and desperate as they are, are not asking for any searching to be done.

Yet, with all that, my saying I don't think going out on my own and searching while neglecting my own family will serve any positive purpose is somehow disrespectful to those fine folks here who have lost loved ones?

I don't get that logic. I just don't see it. But let me apologize to whomever is offended by that. I certainly didn't mean any harm.

No harm done, just ?, as I still have..???

1) So, Susan is not valued as she, obviously was female, and where ALL son's come from?

2) surely everyone in WLV saw Josh's so-called interviews. what did you guys think? (honestly, seriously) I know the entire community saw THAT one

3) what say you about helping someone who, by actions, and lack of words.
why would you do that?

4) I belong to a Christian/Catholic community. There would be one, maybe 2 who would help. Not ALL in the "neighborhood." No wonder Josh wants that again! Me too. that would be up to the priest as to how he would deal, and I have no doubt he would show mercy, but ONLY if he confessed. As he would urge him to do so.

 

[Curious Me]

Sorry you feel that way.

I was a little surprised at people taking anything I said as that I was "SO concerned about Josh, but what about Susan?" That's just silly.Look, there will always be a mob mentality in this type of thing. I get that. I'm proudly on the fringe of that mob. But if throwing out an occasional bit of perspective disingratiates one's self from the mob - well, then maybe the problem is with the mob.

Here are some facts:

1) No one knows within two hundred miles where Susan might be;

2) No one can give a single bit of evidence that she is alive;

3) The police, with all the inside, intimate information they have on the situation are not doing any searching;

4) Susan's family, as broken-hearted and desperate as they are, are not asking for any searching to be done.

Yet, with all that, my saying I don't think going out on my own and searching while neglecting my own family will serve any positive purpose is somehow disrespectful to those fine folks here who have lost loved ones?

I don't get that logic. I just don't see it. But let me apologize to whomever is offended by that. I certainly didn't mean any harm.

BBM, I believe you may be calling my statement silly. I do think you sound like a great parent and family man. But, tho' you may say it's not true, you have sounded like you're defending Josh, and all the not-really-friends helping him. Taking a stand for what you believe in would really make a long lasting effect on the world.

Oh, BTW, I didn't suggest you go on a search by yourself. Please read my post again. I said start a search, maybe gather the church members together like it's done in your world, and help find Susan, the missing church member.

It is not silly to keep looking for Susan, IMHO.

 

[kiki the parrot]

At the risk of getting busted yet again today, I find it interesting you brought this up. I was talking to someone the other day about judgement. First of all, I hereby profess I am merely human and stumble all the time. But I have also come to realise that there is a fine line between giving an opinion and judging someone, wouldn't you say? When celebrities do wrong I see people say they deserve to lose their jobs and so on. Or a situation like this where someone has lost a life due to horrible circumstance. Society seems very unforgiving anymore and I always believed God wanted us to be forgiving. Which doesn't mean forgetting but accepting responsibility, working thru problems and moving on, part of healing as well.

So in this situation that Josh is in, just how far does someone reach out to him in hopes to get him to confess, before we are judging him?

"Stumbled" and covering up the disposed bodies of alot of spouses and parents of your children lately have you...? Because if you have, I stand corrected... and you have no right to judge JP's actions.

Seriously, where are you getting all of that? Because a few people went over and helped him move, they are accepting and forgiving murder?

There is nobody on any messageboard or news site - at least that I've read - that is any way doing anything but condemning him.

I was replying to *Fresca's* post above. That's where I got it. Seriously.

For the first portion I bolded, I will repectfully disagree with that in part. I see people being judged because their actions are deemed incorrect or wrong by someone else.

Second bolded statement: Isn't all sin equal in God's eyes? Haven't we all heard that? Isn't all stumbling sin?

There is one penalty for all sin--so in that respect yes. In severity? NO. Consider the teenager who tosses a cigarette into a public trashcan and deliberately ignites the contents causing damage only to the receptacle is probably a misdemeanor. Consider the heartache and suffering heaped upon Michael Brewer who, after being doused in a flammable liquid was set on fire--if he lives (he's been battling resp infections) he will face dozens more painful reconstructive surgeries, years and years of slow, agonizing rehabilitation... and just untold grief (look at the photos). You're gonna tell me all "stumbling" is the same? All sin is "equal" in severity?

Third bolded statement: On the contrary, our society is very harsh and judgemental, along with unforgiving. People are doling out 'solutions' and unafraid to vocalize the best punishment for 'sins' committed. For example, how absurd is it to say that Charlie Sheen should lose his job and his show because he allegedly beat his wife? How ridiculous is that? If everyone who beat their spouses or committed other sins were deemed to be qualified to lose their jobs over it, what does that really solve? All we do is add someone else to the welfare payroll. I seriously feel some people do not see the idiocy and illogicalness in some of the things that they say.
There is a reason God said, 'judge not, lest ye be judged'. Are we saying we don't trust God to dole out the most proper punishment in his judgement of someone? Are we saying the Almighty is incompetent of doing so?

What He SAID is to judge OURSELVES FIRST, by first removing the fault from our own eye in order we might SEE BETTER TO JUDGE ANOTHER'S. And to use the SAME MEASURE when judging others as we use for ourselves. Like everything else I've been asked to repeat, I've written about this and now wearied of explaining it. You're missing many pieces here HUGE pieces... like repentance etc but I'm not getting any more OT than it's gotten. You disagree, but your argument isn't w me. JMO

arrot:

 

[kiki the parrot]

::: snipped for length :::

I don't know. We are also told that if your enemy hungers, give him food. If your enemy thirsts, give him drink. Is that the same principal as, 'If your enemy needs help moving, help him move'? :::shrugs:::

No. That is all I can tell you Fresca, this takes years of bible study to understand and can't all be explained in a missing persons thread. I guess that's really my frustration is that I feel like these things are being taken terribly, greivously out of context... and yet I'm really not at liberty to help clarify all of the misconceptions, they are coming so fast--and are so vast and so very many. Really. Hardly know where to start, there is MUCH taught re correction, discipline, and accountablity w/in the church! There is MUCH to learn about boundaries on behavior and in fact that's probably a great place to start!
:idea:
BOUNDARIES, or SAFE RELATIONSHIPS, or SAFE PEOPLE, or any book by authors Drs. Cloud & Townsend. Lifechanging. Highly recommend. Can't cover it here friend... I can only assure you it is this sort of naivete and erroneous thinking that got me in a world of hurt, I promise you, still digging out... great reads, rooted in scripture... run, do not walk lol...

arrot:

 

[crocus]

No. That is all I can tell you Fresca, this takes years of bible study to understand and can't all be explained in a missing persons thread. I guess that's really my frustration is that I feel like these things are being taken terribly, greivously out of context... and yet I'm really not at liberty to help clarify all of the misconceptions, they are coming so fast--and are so vast and so very many. Really. Hardly know where to start, there is MUCH taught re correction, discipline, and accountablity w/in the church! There is MUCH to learn about boundaries on behavior and in fact that's probably a great place to start!
:idea:
BOUNDARIES, or SAFE RELATIONSHIPS, or SAFE PEOPLE, or any book by authors Drs. Cloud & Townsend. Lifechanging. Highly recommend. Can't cover it here friend... I can only assure you it is this sort of naivete and erroneous thinking that got me in a world of hurt, I promise you, still digging out... great reads, rooted in scripture... run, do not walk lol...

arrot:

Good, decent common sense goes a long way too. IMO.

 

[AlexisFresca]

No. That is all I can tell you Fresca, this takes years of bible study to understand and can't all be explained in a missing persons thread. I guess that's really my frustration is that I feel like these things are being taken terribly, greivously out of context... and yet I'm really not at liberty to help clarify all of the misconceptions, they are coming so fast--and are so vast and so very many. Really. Hardly know where to start, there is MUCH taught re correction, discipline, and accountablity w/in the church! There is MUCH to learn about boundaries on behavior and in fact that's probably a great place to start!
:idea:
BOUNDARIES, or SAFE RELATIONSHIPS, or SAFE PEOPLE, or any book by authors Drs. Cloud & Townsend. Lifechanging. Highly recommend. Can't cover it here friend... I can only assure you it is this sort of naivete and erroneous thinking that got me in a world of hurt, I promise you, still digging out... great reads, rooted in scripture... run, do not walk lol...

arrot:

Its not that I don't understand what your saying, I just don't agree with coming down on people who helped him load up the van, without knowing what their intentions or reasons were for doing so. That doesn't mean I agree with what they did.

 

[elfie]

(bbm) You've totally misconstrued my point. Sounding like SP, I've "villified neighbors and friends because they won't confront a very likely murderer?" How about just not help him leave, that works. How about maintain their distance from this "very likely murderer" vs dashing over w the Welcome Wagon to rush to this "very likely wife murderer's" aid. That works too. If it's "courage" they lack and no one in the church, or leadership or any of the people that were there assisting him wants to stop pretending there's no giant elephant in the room, maybe just stop coddling, catering to or colaboring w this "very likely murderer." Afterall, they shouldn't be there at all if they're so fearful of becoming his next "very likely victim!"

Because JP has lawyered up so can't be legally forced to incriminate himself, we should all move heaven and earth, bend over backward to do w/e will assist JP in leaving town... so he can comfortably, effortlessly stonewall police and avoid answering their questions... since afterall it is his Fifth Amendment Right? Right? Ugh, how legalistic is that!



I'm sorry, you've totally lost me w Tara and Charlie... No really. N/M... obviously I'm neither deep nor Christlike enough.

arrot:

It just seems unfortunate that Josh is free at all to be able to move around and also, at the same time, he retains custody of his children. I personally feel that after the findings of the wellness check on that Monday combined with Josh's lamentable alibi, they would have had enough to hold him for some amount of time. Frustration with Josh is spilling over into other areas.

 

[elfie]

It just seems unfortunate that Josh is free at all to be able to move around and also, at the same time, that he retains custody of his children. I personally feel that after the findings of the wellness check on that Monday combined with Josh's lamentable alibi, they would have had enough to hold him for some amount of time.

Frustration with Josh's lack of concern for Susan and concern for the boy's current situation is spilling over into other areas.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Well, first of all, I haven't helped Josh. In fact, I said that I probably wouldn't have helped him, if I was in his ward. I've also spoken negatively in nearly every post I've had about him in this thread. I would love to see a single post where I've said anything positive about him. I'm not his apologist. But I also think it's a little silly to talk of people helping move as if they are somehow condoning his actions.

I will say YES--by helping is enabling. just 'pretend' that you don't know/understand the truth of the matter? if "friends"/neighbors were actually helping him, then IMO they were enabling. that is UNLESS they just wanted him outta there the quicker, the better (or closest had another agenda inspired by LE). while aspiring to be Christ-like, that does not mean that we are. we just continually try to be. we are not omnipotent: and we DO know better than to smile, make hot choc/WITH marshmallows, and shake hands, {{hugs}} with wife/mother-murderers.

What elephant...

*I* don't see any elephant... :snooty: So what if his wife is nowhere to be found anymore. So what if LE says his stories make no sense and none of his alibis can be verified. So what if his boys have no mother now, and she is now lying where Josh dumped her lifeless body. So what if he won't talk to LE or cooperate and instead fleeing to his dad's where he can avoid their questions. So what if this presumed murderer is walking free, and Susan's laying stiff and frozen. So what if we're givin Josh a hand, this husband who tossed his wife like yesterday's garbage.... He's just another really "great guy" we're helpin out. JMO

arrot:

 

[Curious Me]

To find any peace within myself on this frustrating stall in this case, I do need to believe some things work themselves out with time.

Then again, some things get swept under the carpet with time.

 

[Curious Me]

What elephant...

*I* don't see any elephant... :snooty: So what if his wife is nowhere to be found anymore. So what if LE says his stories make no sense and none of his alibis can be verified. So what if his boys have no mother now, and she is now lying where Josh dumped her lifeless body. So what if he won't talk to LE or cooperate and instead fleeing to his dad's where he can avoid their questions. So what if this presumed murderer is walking free, and Susan's laying stiff and frozen. So what if we're givin Josh a hand, this husband who tossed his wife like yesterday's garbage.... He's just another really "great guy" we're helpin out. JMO

arrot:

Do you think that elephant could be swept under the carpet? :drac:

 

[AlexisFresca]

[
::: respectfully snipped ::: So what if his wife is nowhere to be found anymore. So what if LE says his stories make no sense and none of his alibis can be verified. So what if his boys have no mother now, and she is now lying where Josh dumped her lifeless body. So what if he won't talk to LE or cooperate and instead fleeing to his dad's where he can avoid their questions. So what if this presumed murderer is walking free, and Susan's laying stiff and frozen. So what if we're givin Josh a hand, this husband who tossed his wife like yesterday's garbage.... He's just another really "great guy" we're helpin out. JMO

arrot:

Imo, false dichotomy.

 

[GrandmaTo4]

Well I think searches should be done to actually try to find people and not just make family and friends feel better. ETA:And did I miss something? Is Susan's family asking for searches?

(bbm) Why do you feel it's necessary for Susan's family to ASK for a search in order for ward members to initiate a search?

We all know Joshua Powell's ward members came to HIS aid.

Was not Susan Powell also a member in good standing of the Mormon Church?

Would the present situation be just a wee bit different if MALE Josh was missing and Susan was the uncooperative, no-verified-alibi FEMALE who was asking for unconditional moving help? :waitasec:

moo

 

[Vegas Bride]

(bbm) Why do you feel it's necessary for Susan's family to ASK for a search in order for ward members to initiate a search?

We all know Joshua Powell's ward members came to HIS aid.

Was not Susan Powell also a member in good standing of the Mormon Church?

Would the present situation be just a wee bit different if MALE Josh was missing and Susan was the uncooperative, no-verified-alibi FEMALE who was asking for unconditional moving help? :waitasec:

moo

I've wondered the same thing about if the roles were reversed and it was the husband who was missing.

Has there been anything said about Susan's co-workers, Wells Fargo has many many branches around here, I can't even imagine how many employees they have, it would be very nice to hear Wells Fargo was interested in doing a search.
Has anybody reached out to Tim Miller to see if he would help?

VB

 

[Gin]

No. That is all I can tell you Fresca, this takes years of bible study to understand and can't all be explained in a missing persons thread. I guess that's really my frustration is that I feel like these things are being taken terribly, greivously out of context... and yet I'm really not at liberty to help clarify all of the misconceptions, they are coming so fast--and are so vast and so very many. Really. Hardly know where to start, there is MUCH taught re correction, discipline, and accountablity w/in the church! There is MUCH to learn about boundaries on behavior and in fact that's probably a great place to start!
:idea:
BOUNDARIES, or SAFE RELATIONSHIPS, or SAFE PEOPLE, or any book by authors Drs. Cloud & Townsend. Lifechanging. Highly recommend. Can't cover it here friend... I can only assure you it is this sort of naivete and erroneous thinking that got me in a world of hurt, I promise you, still digging out... great reads, rooted in scripture... run, do not walk lol...

arrot:

BBM--I agree. There is so much truth in your words. I've read the book you referenced, and it is lifechanging. The concept of boundaries seems to be a little less popular these days, and that's too bad. It's not the easy path of oh, well, whatever. Whether it's a relationship with a spouse, a teen, a co worker, or a fellow church member--they all have a common thread. To some degree one needs to decide on what the behavior boundaries are. Cruising through life with an anything goes attitude (maybe the more current phrase would be--no judging) can have some unpleasant consequences. We are accountable for the choices we make in this life. That includes being thoughtful about the choices we make in how we relate to others. In particular, when we are dealing with someone we're close to that is moderately or heavily involved with negative behaviors we need to take a step back and start making some conscious choices. To just shrug our shoulders and ignore the situation isn't an effective strategy. It just allows plenty of space for the negative behaviors to continue, unchecked, with our tacit endorsement.