VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #1

[rainbow]

"There is a chance that at least some of the female victims may have been bludgeoned in their sleep, the source said, although only the final autopsy report will be able to confirm that." http://www.wtvr.com/wtvr-farmville-murders-new-information,0,31503.story

This is more for me than anything. I could not remember where it had been proven that they had been killed in their sleep. Is this article the only mention of that? Just curious because in this article it states "may" have been....

I too am anxious to hear more facts about what happened but I am afraid we're probably not going to hear anything new for awhile.

 

[KindraLore]

There's nothing wrong with speculation that is recognized and labeled as such. It's the speculation disguised as "truth" you need to watch out for.

I sat on the jury for an attempted murder trial two years ago and I got to meet the city's chief medical examiner who was one of the witnesses. She had a very precise manner of talking about what she knew and how she knew it that I have tried to emulate in my work. Speculation is fine, just keep the facts clearly separated from the guesses.

Sorry.. I'm a bit behind here as far as tonight's posts but dang, you are a Lawyer, a Juror, a Psychologist, an Occultist Expert, and who knows what else.

Chop chop! Dont you have this whole thing figured out already? We are all wasting our time here I guess and should just listen to YOU. Sorry to be all sarcastic but good grief!

 

[Heroine]

"There is a chance that at least some of the female victims may have been bludgeoned in their sleep, the source said, although only the final autopsy report will be able to confirm that." http://www.wtvr.com/wtvr-farmville-murders-new-information,0,31503.story

This is more for me than anything. I could not remember where it had been proven that they had been killed in their sleep. Is this article the only mention of that? Just curious because in this article it states "may" have been....

I too am anxious to hear more facts about what happened but I am afraid we're probably not going to hear anything new for awhile.

Every article I've read have all been different, but I do remember us discussing how they knew they were sleep and someone mentioned, they could tell by how the blood pooled? does anyone else remember?

 

[rainbow]

Yeah well i also saw someone say that alcoholand drugs aren't allowed there too, but sick and raz had a bottle of jack Daniels or jim beam...(alcohol) on stage. So those comments mean just as much to me as that inaccurate information in the article. Not to mention, the place really has nothing to do with the murders anyway.

What I read was that the venue does not sell alcohol. Of course with any venue that offer alcohol party goers are gonna bring it in. That's everywhere. And well with drugs that too. I've been in plenty clubs in Atlanta where people were openly snorting powder in the bathroom. I live in a small town so that was shocking to me how it was done so freely without any worry of getting busted.

 

[KindraLore]

I've wondered that too. Maybe Sam couldn't find her keys? Or maybe her car was low on gas and he was trying to get to Richmond without the funds to fuel up.

I'm haunted by Atlantica's comment that Sam had really done a number on the pastor. It sounded like he was killed in a different manner and that he'd been viciously attacked. Perhaps I'm reading too much into her comment but that's how it sounded to me.

I just keep wonder WHY he stayed there period after killing the women. I mean plane ticket or not, most people would have fled there and regrouped later regarding what to do next. Not many crimes have I read of where the killer stays behind for days.

 

[Heroine]

Forgive me for being dense, but I still don't understand how Sam was able to kill all three females, even if it were done while they slept. Wouldn't one wake up during an attack? And if so, wouldn't a lot of noise be made, thus waking up the others? It's just one of those things I can't get past.

Yeah I've been thinking the same.

 

[absynthminded1]

Forgive me for being dense, but I still don't understand how Sam was able to kill all three females, even if it were done while they slept. Wouldn't one wake up during an attack? And if so, wouldn't a lot of noise be made, thus waking up the others? It's just one of those things I can't get past.

When I first started to profile this case, I suggested that PERHAPS the mother was killed first and that the 2 girls had some hand in it. I then SPECULATED that it was a possibility that they were murdered after the gravity of the situation finally hit them and they began panicking.

At the time I made this SPECULATION, the information about Sam and Emma having an mutual split wasn't known, so I was thinking it was more along the lines of the parent(s) being murdered, so not to come between the young lovers.

I will say this.... it is likely that the mother was killed first. (One person in a separate room, a grown up who is less likely to freeze and panic the same way that a teen would in the face of danger.) It would be logical to take out the adult first. (Even more so if Sam really was cold and vindictive enough to Kill mom and rub it in Emma's face before killing her.)

 

[dangrsmind]

Yeah well i also saw someone say that alcoholand drugs aren't allowed there too, but sick and raz had a bottle of jack Daniels or jim beam...(alcohol) on stage. So those comments mean just as much to me as that inaccurate information in the article. Not to mention, the place really has nothing to do with the murders anyway.
Edited to speak on the part of the article that says there isn't any violence. A man beating himself in the head, or beating his girlfriend on stage isn't any violence? Yeah just the kinda role models I want my kids to look up to and mimic.

The venue may not officially allow alcohol, but it is hardly unusual for the performers to get things the audience can't or for alcohol and drugs to be brought into a concert or venue. Big commercial bands often have riders to their contracts that specify what sort of booze they want backstage at a show and it is often in ridiculous amounts. Drugs are handled similarly but without a written agreement.

 

[KindraLore]

oh...now that i can't answer that because I never seen the parents there. All I know is they took them, but noone ever mentions if they stayed. I did hear someone say that emmas mom gave Raz some food she had brought somewhere.

I know they stayed at a motel that night and the girls went to an after party. Whether or not the parents actually attended the event is unknown factually.

 

[rainbow]

Every article I've read have all been different, but I do remember us discussing how they knew they were sleep and someone mentioned, they could tell by how the blood pooled? does anyone else remember?

I know what you mean. Especially in the first few days after the bodies were discovered. I don't remember the blood pooled thing, but I know I even read somewhere that someone local had heard the weapon of choice was a hammer. But of course I haven't been able to find proof of that anywhere either. It's hard to tell what is small town gossip and what is factual. I think more gossip because LE is not releasing jack to the public.

 

[dangrsmind]

When I first started to profile this case, I suggested that PERHAPS the mother was killed first and that the 2 girls had some hand in it. I then SPECULATED that it was a possibility that they were murdered after the gravity of the situation finally hit them and they began panicking.

At the time I made this SPECULATION, the information about Sam and Emma having an mutual split wasn't known, so I was thinking it was more along the lines of the parent(s) being murdered, so not to come between the young lovers.

I will say this.... it is likely that the mother was killed first. (One person in a separate room, a grown up who is less likely to freeze and panic the same way that a teen would in the face of danger.) It would be logical to take out the adult first. (Even more so if Sam really was cold and vindictive enough to Kill mom and rub it in Emma's face before killing her.)

That's interesting, because the opposite is what seemed obvious to me.

His anger is directed at Emma, so it seemed he'd attack her first in a rage, and after he kills her he naturally has to kill everyone else fairly quickly to avoid the alarm being raised.

 

[dangrsmind]

I know they stayed at a motel that night and the girls went to an after party. Whether or not the parents actually attended the event is unknown factually.

Do you recall the reference on that? I don't recall seeing anything about an after party and it is not in my notes.

 

[KindraLore]

Do you recall the reference on that? I don't recall seeing anything about an after party and it is not in my notes.

Not off hand. I will look it up tomorrow. I do remember of all the press that yes it was a long drive, they stayed at a motel (the kids going told what motel to book and talked about the after parties). I then read bits and pieces about them being at the motel like SickTanic making reference to Sam's "hickies". I also read that the girls went to an after party that Sam wasnt at. I cant remember after all this amount of info where, its just what I recall.

 

[absynthminded1]

That's interesting, because the opposite is what seemed obvious to me.

His anger is directed at Emma, so it seemed he'd attack her first in a rage, and after he kills her he naturally has to kill everyone else fairly quickly to avoid the alarm being raised.

It would really depend on a whole set of circumstances... What was his actual mental state when he killed the three women? Knowing that at least some victims were sleeping makes it less likely to me that he just "snapped." Had he snapped and Emma was the source of his anger, yes, I believe he would have killed her first and collected the rest as collateral damage.

I believe he was cool, calm, and calculated. Maybe I am being a bit swayed by his post crime demeanor and lack of remorse, but I just have a hard time believing he snapped and killed in the heat of the moment. That's just my read on him.

I picture him creeping in silently... staring down at his first victim, drawing back the bludgeoning object, and whacking whacking until there's nothing left. (Just as he rapped about, substituting whacking for stabbing.)

What happened at this point? Did one or two of the girls wake up startled and rush to the mother's room? Were any of them chased through the house? Did anyone fight back?

This isn't a pretty question, but can anyone answer whether or not the funerals were open or closed casket?

 

[Heroine]

The venue may not officially allow alcohol, but it is hardly unusual for the performers to get things the audience can't or for alcohol and drugs to be brought into a concert or venue. Big commercial bands often have riders to their contracts that specify what sort of booze they want backstage at a show and it is often in ridiculous amounts. Drugs are handled similarly but without a written agreement.

This is true. I've seen this happen. I was just trying to make a point of how inaccurate that article was.

 

[KindraLore]

When I first started to profile this case, I suggested that PERHAPS the mother was killed first and that the 2 girls had some hand in it. I then SPECULATED that it was a possibility that they were murdered after the gravity of the situation finally hit them and they began panicking.

At the time I made this SPECULATION, the information about Sam and Emma having an mutual split wasn't known, so I was thinking it was more along the lines of the parent(s) being murdered, so not to come between the young lovers.

I will say this.... it is likely that the mother was killed first. (One person in a separate room, a grown up who is less likely to freeze and panic the same way that a teen would in the face of danger.) It would be logical to take out the adult first. (Even more so if Sam really was cold and vindictive enough to Kill mom and rub it in Emma's face before killing her.)

IF this were the case then do you think its possible one or more of the girls was/were in on it at first? I wont lie, it has crossed my mind, and a lurker here put a couple of words in on the same opinion.

I would hope not and I dont think they were but it will be interesting to see the coroner's report as to what order the deaths occurred.

 

[Nikolai]

My response to that gravesite photo is to think they just look goofy. It's an annoying and potentially hurtful prank for the poor people whose family member lies there; it's a stupid kid trick all around. But it sure doesn't seem very sinister. Apart from Sam's proven malignancy, a lot of the stuff in these scenes seems just simple-minded and clown-like. Maybe that's why so many clueless but basically benign teens get into this and are so distracted by the buffoonery and pagentry and camaraderie of it all that they don't even see the malignant rat in their midst, taking it all so very seriously. Sam didn't get the joke. Of course, now a lot of them aren't finding the joke so funny anymore either.

I think many of these guys are immature and dont realize how serious something like that is. In their world thats goofing around. Thats how I look at it. Sam took it to a much higher level but in the end iI doubt it will be in the name of satanism or horrorcore, IMO like so many violent acts that happen, it will be over infatuation with a woman.

Its sad to because of the age and immaturity/inexperience of the killer and victim. Sam doesnt realize how unimportant losing Emma is in the long run. The bad thing is I have a hard time believing that Sam wouldnt have done this to another woman somewhere down the line.

 

[Nikolai]

I don't think gxm was implying anything about the music making him do anything, he was just stating that "maybe" him failing at music and at having a g/f, could have made his sick mind snap. Makes sense to me. I don't really see anything to be argued in his post. It's his opinion and nothing else.
Also I'd like to add that I don't think anything should give anyone any reason to ever kill anyone, even Emma!

And I was giving my opinion that I think he seemed to be more just messing around with his music, from how he made it sound anyways. I actually have agreed with GXM that some sort of failure with Emma is why he committed murder.

And Emma isnt a reason for anyone to kill, but sadly jealousy or obsession are more of the common reasons men kill women. Its stupid but the way it is. I still think it takes a special(in a bad way) person to have murder in them and Sam is one of those people. He probably like most murderers is a sociopath who only has feeling for and about himself. He feels sorry for himself right now, not the persons he killed.

 

[thesaint]

IF this were the case then do you think its possible one or more of the girls was/were in on it at first? I wont lie, it has crossed my mind, and a lurker here put a couple of words in on the same opinion.

I would hope not and I dont think they were but it will be interesting to see the coroner's report as to what order the deaths occurred.

Early on, there was some indication that 2 of the bodies were more decomposed than the other 2, with the pastor's being the least.

 

[rainbow]

Not off hand. I will look it up tomorrow. I do remember of all the press that yes it was a long drive, they stayed at a motel (the kids going told what motel to book and talked about the after parties). I then read bits and pieces about them being at the motel like SickTanic making reference to Sam's "hickies". I also read that the girls went to an after party that Sam wasnt at. I cant remember after all this amount of info where, its just what I recall.

"In Michigan, they stayed at a motel—Kelley, Wells and Emma Niederbrock in one room, Mark Niederbrock in his own room, and McCroskey in a third room."
"Pavlovich said he later saw the girls without McCroskey at an after-party in a motel room."

http://www2.wsls.com/sls/news/local...l_crime_in_farmville_and_a_strange_one/50196/