Verdict Watch
- Thread starter Madeleine74
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A few people asked earlier what people thought of the split jurors -- men or women undecided. I don't follow too many trials like many of you do (actually this is really my first from start to finish)..but I have read things before about juries...
it wouldn't surprise me if there were more women than men voting for NG. For some reason, many men are harder on cheaters, etc than women...I could be wrong but I know I've read that before and it wouldn't surprise me...
it wouldn't surprise me if there were more women than men voting for NG. For some reason, many men are harder on cheaters, etc than women...I could be wrong but I know I've read that before and it wouldn't surprise me...
RaleighNC
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SOOOO darn deflated right now.
There seems to have been a lack of passion in this case on the part of the prosecution. Or- as someone else put it - the tone of righteous indignation in BH's closing. The odd pauses. You want someone who will yell if necessary to get a point across.
And - JY's testimony - the keycard issue about going to get his laptop charger - as noted here - he'd have to have had it in his packet because he would not have relied on a dog that didn't close if he hadn't tried closing it while leaving.
Show the pics of the doors - and ask "when there are good solid rocks there, does it make sense to reach and grab a 'twig'?"
Show the pics of security at Cracker Barrel and ask about the shoes
Show the pics of the sweaters - they are simply not the same.
What's in your hands, Jason, leaving the hotel? gloves? paper? map?
Hammer MM on never asking him if he did it - or WHY they stopped their affair after MY was dead? How do you go from 47000 phone calls a day to none?
Hone in on the pattern of violence with women
Wasn't the manufacturer of the adult cough medicine a company for which JY worked? What are the odds?
As noted - motive was ONLY to kill MY - valuables left behind - WHO?
Clerk for gas - you remember someone being a jackass - esp at 5 AM. Why were you there at 5 AM Jason?
This is so very disappointing. I just don't see how 6 people can not add this up, either.
There seems to have been a lack of passion in this case on the part of the prosecution. Or- as someone else put it - the tone of righteous indignation in BH's closing. The odd pauses. You want someone who will yell if necessary to get a point across.
And - JY's testimony - the keycard issue about going to get his laptop charger - as noted here - he'd have to have had it in his packet because he would not have relied on a dog that didn't close if he hadn't tried closing it while leaving.
Show the pics of the doors - and ask "when there are good solid rocks there, does it make sense to reach and grab a 'twig'?"
Show the pics of security at Cracker Barrel and ask about the shoes
Show the pics of the sweaters - they are simply not the same.
What's in your hands, Jason, leaving the hotel? gloves? paper? map?
Hammer MM on never asking him if he did it - or WHY they stopped their affair after MY was dead? How do you go from 47000 phone calls a day to none?
Hone in on the pattern of violence with women
Wasn't the manufacturer of the adult cough medicine a company for which JY worked? What are the odds?
As noted - motive was ONLY to kill MY - valuables left behind - WHO?
Clerk for gas - you remember someone being a jackass - esp at 5 AM. Why were you there at 5 AM Jason?
This is so very disappointing. I just don't see how 6 people can not add this up, either.
happy2binNC
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From Twitter:
wral WRAL NEWS in NC
Jury foreman: "We owe it to the court. We have a little bit more work to do your honor." The jury is going to lunch until 2:45. #youngtrial
wral WRAL NEWS in NC
Jury foreman: "We owe it to the court. We have a little bit more work to do your honor." The jury is going to lunch until 2:45. #youngtrial
JiminWilton
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Sorry, folks, I'm not crying a river over this. Unlike most of the contributors to this forum, I tend to believe in innocent until proven guilty. I am disheartened by the volume of posters who were convinced of guilt before the first voir dire. However...
While you commiserate and ponder how this could have happened, take a moment and listen to the closing arguments of the defense, particular the recitation of mileage and fuel purchases. As you listen, remember that the State has the burden of proving its assertions and allegations, and cannot conveniently "explain away" things with no proof.
I don't remember the specifics, but I was paying attention when defense counsel related stipulated mileages and evidence of fuel purchases. Discounting an alleged purchase in King, NC, where the cursing customer was a little taller than a 5' 0" clerk and the identification was based on showing a single photograph rather than an array, the Explorer got 19.55 MPG from Hugo to the fillup somewhere in western VA. The next fillup was in Burlington, where the average was 19.5 or so. That seems to hold up pretty well.
Now, about the alleged King NC purchase...
Using the ~19.5 mpg number, had Jason driven to the Hampton Inn, returned to his home to commit murder, and then driven back to the motel, he would have run out of fuel 18 miles from the King station. Oh, go ahead and say he could have stopped and purchased fuel, but if he did, why in the world did he stop in King, but more importantly, where was any evidence introduced to show this additional purchase.
Further, using the stipulated mileage figures and the stipulated gasoline price of $2.16, had Jason made the surreptitious purchase at King, he would have had to maintain 38 mpg to the next fuel stop. Oh, go ahead and say he could have stopped anywhere, but remember, it the burden of the state to PROVE that he purchased just enough additional fuel to make the mileage figures work. And why oh why, if he was the cursing customer, did he only pump $15 from a $20 bill and then stop yet again for some small purchase to make that consistent 19.5 mpg work out.
My fellow sleuths, whatever else was presented regarding with whom he slept, whether he engaged in childish behavior, swallowed wedding rings, cheated and wrote long emails, you prove to me that the fuel mileage argument is NOT reasonable doubt.
Sure, the red rocks and hush puppies and mangled cameras and clean babies and hush puppy footprints are very interesting, but get me beyond the mileage argument laid out at closing without resorting to "he could have." Anybody could have done anything. That's no way to incarcerate a man for life.
Flame away.
While you commiserate and ponder how this could have happened, take a moment and listen to the closing arguments of the defense, particular the recitation of mileage and fuel purchases. As you listen, remember that the State has the burden of proving its assertions and allegations, and cannot conveniently "explain away" things with no proof.
I don't remember the specifics, but I was paying attention when defense counsel related stipulated mileages and evidence of fuel purchases. Discounting an alleged purchase in King, NC, where the cursing customer was a little taller than a 5' 0" clerk and the identification was based on showing a single photograph rather than an array, the Explorer got 19.55 MPG from Hugo to the fillup somewhere in western VA. The next fillup was in Burlington, where the average was 19.5 or so. That seems to hold up pretty well.
Now, about the alleged King NC purchase...
Using the ~19.5 mpg number, had Jason driven to the Hampton Inn, returned to his home to commit murder, and then driven back to the motel, he would have run out of fuel 18 miles from the King station. Oh, go ahead and say he could have stopped and purchased fuel, but if he did, why in the world did he stop in King, but more importantly, where was any evidence introduced to show this additional purchase.
Further, using the stipulated mileage figures and the stipulated gasoline price of $2.16, had Jason made the surreptitious purchase at King, he would have had to maintain 38 mpg to the next fuel stop. Oh, go ahead and say he could have stopped anywhere, but remember, it the burden of the state to PROVE that he purchased just enough additional fuel to make the mileage figures work. And why oh why, if he was the cursing customer, did he only pump $15 from a $20 bill and then stop yet again for some small purchase to make that consistent 19.5 mpg work out.
My fellow sleuths, whatever else was presented regarding with whom he slept, whether he engaged in childish behavior, swallowed wedding rings, cheated and wrote long emails, you prove to me that the fuel mileage argument is NOT reasonable doubt.
Sure, the red rocks and hush puppies and mangled cameras and clean babies and hush puppy footprints are very interesting, but get me beyond the mileage argument laid out at closing without resorting to "he could have." Anybody could have done anything. That's no way to incarcerate a man for life.
Flame away.
WolfpackWoman
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So, that's what happened!
That's just not a fair statement. These jurors have a much greater responsibility than us anonymous internet posters. Just because they haven't come to the same conclusion as you (and me too...I believe he is guilty) doesn't mean they aren't bright. It means they aren't willing to send someone to jail for the rest of their life with the obvious holes in this case. As much as I wanted this to be, it is absolutely not a slam dunk case. But I applaud these jurors for doing their job, regardless of the end result.
fran
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Like Shiparo said from the OJ trial, "Def attorneys don't win cases. Pros loose them."
JMHO
fran
JMHO
fran
RaleighNative
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Snipped by me.
I have to disagree about the "lack of passion" on the part of the prosecution. I thought the prosection was much more professional in this case. I felt in the BC case, the ADA's were desperate and grasping at straws and their demeanor was a turnoff to me.
My one point of criticism was the lack of cross of JY on the stand. I thought it was really short and she missed a ton of points.
The only other thing I would have changed is to let the other ADA (forget his name) do the entire closing statement. I thought BH was excellent during the trial, but on closing she almost sounded bored. The first half of closing done by the other ADA was brilliant.
Maybe the BC jury had a groupthink mentality and didn't want to make waves or argue with other jurors. I don't know. I was shocked by the BC verdict, and I'm stunned by the split on this one.
Goldenblatt
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So I just had to catch up - and was stunned. I had to go into the bathroom at work and cry. I rarely get caught up in a murder and trial personally, but with this one I really have been front and center.
I have to say that the circumstantial evidence to convict is very strong, however, I believe the "reasonable doubt" came in due to the less than stellar cross coupled with a strong closing by defense. I can understand hung jury - but not after only 1 day of deliberations and certainly didn't see a 6-6 coming. A new trial? Likely. Chance of JY getting out on bond? Perhaps. I just want to hug the Fisher family and tell them how deeply disappointed I am but still hopeful for justice for Michelle and Rylan.
I have to say that the circumstantial evidence to convict is very strong, however, I believe the "reasonable doubt" came in due to the less than stellar cross coupled with a strong closing by defense. I can understand hung jury - but not after only 1 day of deliberations and certainly didn't see a 6-6 coming. A new trial? Likely. Chance of JY getting out on bond? Perhaps. I just want to hug the Fisher family and tell them how deeply disappointed I am but still hopeful for justice for Michelle and Rylan.
It is ok, GL. We all disagree from time to time. You know my stand on JG, you know my stand on JS. I just don't think JS is the reason for the jury being deadlocked. I personally think everyone did a great job, including BH. Yes, her cross of JY was not great. But, JY's taking the stand and the closing argument by the defense are key reasons for this hung jury. The other key issues are the gas purchases, the extra shoe, cigarette butts, and some more in there. IMOO
Just the Fax
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If these 6 insist there is evidence of someone else (cig butts, dna, size 10 shoes, vans), that does not excuse JLY from 1st degree murder. His size 12 HP prints (now missing) placed him at the scene.
Something to think about if you are ever foreman of a jury:
Going through every piece of evidence, every witness, every circumstance carefully before taking an anonymous straw vote is a good idea. That way each piece of evidence can be discussed before anyone even has to write a vote on a little slip of paper. Certainly no one ends up on the spot and having to "hold fast or save face" this way.
Each witness can be evaluated based upon jurors feelings about their credibility and accuracy (not necessarily the same thing.) Each piece of evidence can be evaluated and discussed for suggesting guilt, suggesting innocence, or neither. Relative importance of evidence can be discussed as it is right there in front of you. Maybe, in looking slowly through the evidence, someone will see something (like those trash bags on the counter by the open cupboard) that no one else noticed. I think it's much harder to do what I suggest when the evidence can't be taken into the jury room. What a crappy law!
I always wonder at these long trials that come back with a verdict really fast, or even "hang fast" like this one. I wonder what procedure they used to go through things, or if they just opened with a show of hands vote and went on to debate from there.
Even if this remains hung, he will be convicted upon retrial. At this point it is just tax money going up in flames if it becomes a do-over, but that's the system we have and I think it's the best we can do.
Going through every piece of evidence, every witness, every circumstance carefully before taking an anonymous straw vote is a good idea. That way each piece of evidence can be discussed before anyone even has to write a vote on a little slip of paper. Certainly no one ends up on the spot and having to "hold fast or save face" this way.
Each witness can be evaluated based upon jurors feelings about their credibility and accuracy (not necessarily the same thing.) Each piece of evidence can be evaluated and discussed for suggesting guilt, suggesting innocence, or neither. Relative importance of evidence can be discussed as it is right there in front of you. Maybe, in looking slowly through the evidence, someone will see something (like those trash bags on the counter by the open cupboard) that no one else noticed. I think it's much harder to do what I suggest when the evidence can't be taken into the jury room. What a crappy law!
I always wonder at these long trials that come back with a verdict really fast, or even "hang fast" like this one. I wonder what procedure they used to go through things, or if they just opened with a show of hands vote and went on to debate from there.
Even if this remains hung, he will be convicted upon retrial. At this point it is just tax money going up in flames if it becomes a do-over, but that's the system we have and I think it's the best we can do.
RaleighNative
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Exactly. On closing the prosecution stated something to the effect of "even if there was someone else involved, JY was still there, involved and guilty".
On another note, I don't understand the argument that CY was too clean. I work while the trial is on so I don't catch everything. How in the world does that point to JY's innocence? Why would she be "cleaner" if someone other than JY did it? The poor child was alone in the house for hours with her mother's body...no one is arguing that fact.
happy2binNC
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Just the Fax
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The defense suggested MF cleaned CY.....does it not make sense JLY did that????
I can't believe they did not address that.
So many missed opportunities to win this case.
Next time, I would go in and concede in the opening there is possible evidence of more than 1 in the house during the murder. Kill the unknown DNA, cig butts and size 10 shoes right off the bat.
I can't believe they did not address that.
So many missed opportunities to win this case.
Next time, I would go in and concede in the opening there is possible evidence of more than 1 in the house during the murder. Kill the unknown DNA, cig butts and size 10 shoes right off the bat.
RaleighNative
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That defense absolutely enrages me. :maddening:
Madeleine74
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He had as much as 90 min in that house. Could have been less though. How long does it take to bludgeon someone 30+ times? 5 min? Less? Say, 15 min to wash himself, 10 min to change clothes afterwards, 5 min to walk around in another pair of shoes. That's 35 min. Even if he was there for only 1 hr that's another 25 min to attend to C.Y., clean her feet, drug her, put her back to bed. Possible? Certainly so.
RaleighNative
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Is there a chance JY will be granted bail while waiting for a second trial? That gives me chills. My only hope is that if JY does get bail, he'll hook up with MM again. That woman deserves what she gets....
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