WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[j2mirish]

OD

Those side by sides are amazing. Why didn't KOIN do that in their piece?

IF we had those side by sides back in 71, do ya think H-bach would have looked at Teddy? or would he have found a different excuse?

left

I"m thinking different excuse.......:crazy:

 

[leftcoast]

I"m thinking different excuse.......:crazy:

You are probably right.

He is too young. My bad. I keep on forgetting Cooper was exactly 47 years old.

Plus, isn't Cooper still on in the middle of the Ginford Pinchot National Forest? Hmm.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

OD

Those side by sides are amazing. Why didn't KOIN do that in their piece?

I don't know, but I'd sure like to see that on your next piece. I'd also like
to see more on the H-back-Teddy-boy connection. BTW, who was it that
convinced IE that HB and TM were feuding at and around the time of the heist?

IF we had those side by sides back in 71, do ya think H-bach would have looked at Teddy? or would he have found a different excuse?

left

Well, let me just say that I'm still amazed at how much energy he spent on Weber knowing full well that the story would be on the Discovery channel. Why isn't he spending a fraction of that calling the FBI now and getting them to open a case on TM? The easiest way to divert attention is to create a storm elsewhere.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

the producer who spent very little time interviewing Teddy and H-bach, told us during our piece (we were taped last), that it was obvious to him that Teddy and H-bach had a war going on back in 1970.

The producer knew very little about the case, it was just his take.

AS for Teddy, you are correct. H-bach knew about this, back in 2001, Yet, I am 99.9% sure he didn't call the FBI and say, hey, maybe I made a mistake. That, is unacceptable.

NOt only that, but, a retired agent, who was with us at the lunch, and agreed with us, to my knowledge, did not call the Seattle FBI, and call in the hunch. HE knew that a retired agent calling in a tip would be taken 100 times more seriously than two schmucks. But,as far as I know, he never did call in the tip.

IF true, it all goes back to the "boys in blue" union.

Yes, the Teddy-h-bach relationship will be in every show. It is the reason for the hijacking, in my mind.

AS for Weber, I don't think the Discovery Channel story had anything to do with H-bach. Weber and H-bach had been talking for years, and Weber finally got H-bach to call the FBI on her behalf, since the FBI wouldn't give her the time of day. PLus, it would help H-bach if everyone thought Weber was Cooper, versus him not solving the case. Win, win. The Discovery Channel show didn't happen until 2001, about 4 or 5 years later. Even in 2001, H-bach admitted to us that he had his doubts about Weber, since what he was originally told was not true. It was an exaggeration.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Can you believe that KOIN actually ran as part of their story that Duane WEber was the best match of over 3,000 suspects, based on facial recognition.

What KOIN didnt' tell you is that is not true.

What happened is as follows: As part of a Discovery Show, a facial recognition specialist in Las VEgas, put in the "Kasey Kasem" sketch into the computer, along with Duane Weber's picture.

OF all the pictures in the "facial recognition" companies files, Duane Weber was the best match as compared to the Kasey Kasem sketch. In the files, was simply gamblers, crooks, etc. who were on the look-out list for Las Vegas casinos.

In other words, the software didn't compare other Cooper suspects (there have only been about 1,000), it compared Weber's sketch with crooks caught in Vegas cheating the casino's. Talk about a rigged event.

Plus, notice how Mayfield's picture wasn't in that bunch, nor did they use the Unsolved Mysteries sketch, and compare the data base and TEddy's and get a match.

In my mind, that is Half-*advertiser censored** reporting. KOIN and Discovery should be embarrassed.

It is kind of like the job the police did in the Duke case. Every person in the lineup in the Duke case was a lacrosse player, so, the accuser had a pretty good chance at picking a lacrosse player.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

the producer who spent very little time interviewing Teddy and H-bach, told us during our piece (we were taped last), that it was obvious to him that Teddy and H-bach had a war going on back in 1970.

I don't know for sure what happened, but listening to H-B talk about the phone call it didn't seem that way to me. If true, it makes that phone call all the more suspicious. There is still a lot to be answered about the HB-TM connection, would you agree?

AS for Teddy, you are correct. H-bach knew about this, back in 2001, Yet, I am 99.9% sure he didn't call the FBI and say, hey, maybe I made a mistake. That, is unacceptable.

Well, yes and he MAY have known about this back in '71. A question for the next program could ask what he's going to do about it.

Yes, the Teddy-h-bach relationship will be in every show. It is the reason for the hijacking, in my mind.

Not exactly sure where you're coming from on this one. Elaborate?

AS for Weber, I don't think the Discovery Channel story had anything to do with H-bach. Weber and H-bach had been talking for years, and Weber finally got H-bach to call the FBI on her behalf, since the FBI wouldn't give her the time of day. PLus, it would help H-bach if everyone thought Weber was Cooper, versus him not solving the case. Win, win. The Discovery Channel show didn't happen until 2001, about 4 or 5 years later. Even in 2001, H-bach admitted to us that he had his doubts about Weber, since what he was originally told was not true. It was an exaggeration.
left

No it wasn't about HB, but he could have easily told her that the FBI wasn't interested and he did his best. As I mentioned before he seems to like to cast attention anywhere but TM. Remember, you've put a lot of heat on this, but as you mentioned "his name kept popping up", so you're not the first to have suspected Teddy-boy.

BTW, any idea of the age of the lumberjack/logger at the time of the investigation?

OD

 

[Old Dominion]

Can you believe that KOIN actually ran as part of their story that Duane WEber was the best match of over 3,000 suspects, based on facial recognition.

What KOIN didnt' tell you is that is not true.

What happened is as follows: As part of a Discovery Show, a facial recognition specialist in Las VEgas, put in the "Kasey Kasem" sketch into the computer, along with Duane Weber's picture.

OF all the pictures in the "facial recognition" companies files, Duane Weber was the best match as compared to the Kasey Kasem sketch. In the files, was simply gamblers, crooks, etc. who were on the look-out list for Las Vegas casinos.

In other words, the software didn't compare other Cooper suspects (there have only been about 1,000), it compared Weber's sketch with crooks caught in Vegas cheating the casino's. Talk about a rigged event.

Plus, notice how Mayfield's picture wasn't in that bunch, nor did they use the Unsolved Mysteries sketch, and compare the data base and TEddy's and get a match.

In my mind, that is Half-*advertiser censored** reporting. KOIN and Discovery should be embarrassed.

It is kind of like the job the police did in the Duke case. Every person in the lineup in the Duke case was a lacrosse player, so, the accuser had a pretty good chance at picking a lacrosse player.

left

There are inherent limitations of using a computer to pick the best match based on a photo and a sketch. In this case as in any, you have to remember that this might be valid if we had two different photos and one was with Teddy wearing a disguise. Then the software could compare facial aspects etc to see if it actually matches a known picture. Both would be photographs for this to be effective. Notwithstanding, I've said before that the Casey Kasem photo is so generic, it could match thousands of short dark haired Caucasian males, and it has no distinguishing features, Teddy-boy has several.

LC, you may have wondered why I declined, despite your request, to give an numeric value as to how good I thought the fit was between the UM sketch and the TM photo. This was for good reason. What was most important is that the sketch looks nothing like the two that have been circulated for the 17 prior years and that in the most basic features, including the hair, nose etc is close enough to your suspect to buttress all the investigative work you've done that points to the same man. Were it that it was off by even a little more, the fact that certain unmistakable aspects such as the pattern baldness, the "Bozo" crest and the thickness of appearance lend greatly to the viability of your suspect.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

I don't know for sure what happened, but listening to H-B talk about the phone call it didn't seem that way to me. If true, it makes that phone call all the more suspicious. There is still a lot to be answered about the HB-TM connection, would you agree?

YEs, I would agree. Yes, according to the H-bach interview, H-bach seemed to think that Teddy and him were buddies. But, according to the producer of IE, he was able to tell that Teddy and H-bach were at war. He didn't elabalorate. I think it was related to H-bach getting Teddy kicked out of Aurora airport. I don't think Teddy forgot about that. H-bach thought since Teddy helped with Cooper, that everything was fine. Wrong!

Well, yes and he MAY have known about this back in '71. A question for the next program could ask what he's going to do about it.

I'm not sure h-bach will ever admit he could have made a mistake.

Not exactly sure where you're coming from on this one. Elaborate?

I don't think Teddy would have ever contemplated a certain act, had he not had someone he thought he could con. IN other words, had teddy not met h-bach, I don't think Cooper would have ever happened. I know you disagree.

No it wasn't about HB, but he could have easily told her that the FBI wasn't interested and he did his best. As I mentioned before he seems to like to cast attention anywhere but TM. Remember, you've put a lot of heat on this, but as you mentioned "his name kept popping up", so you're not the first to have suspected Teddy-boy.

Correct, but originally, I think H-bach did think Weber could be Cooper. You see WEber's widow told h-bach she had a ticket from portland to Seattle on November 24, 1971 that she found in Duane's possessions. However, as time went on, that ticket mysteriously disappeared. Plus, the truth was stretched about a few other things. So, after about 100 phone calls, h-bach finally began to feel that Weber was not such a good suspect anymore.

BTW, any idea of the age of the lumberjack/logger at the time of the investigation?

No. it just says middle aged, and that he hauled lumber for 25 years. I'm convinced h-bach thinks Cooper was exactly 47. I really do.
OD

/////////////

 

[Old Dominion]

No. it just says middle aged, and that he hauled lumber for 25 years. I'm convinced h-bach thinks Cooper was exactly 47. I really do.

What about 45-55 in the KOIN interview of the man himself?

 

[leftcoast]

What about 45-55 in the KOIN interview of the man himself?

Well, that was to save face in front of the Portland citizens. I'm telling ya, he will NEVER admit he made a mistake (assuming you are not right about your theory)

Well, I think it would be behooved H-bach to interview flo. Especially since she told us he was only "40".

The original description given to the FBI, was about 45-50, when the hijacking first began in the air. However, anyone with a half a brain knows age is difficult to determine, the hijacker was disguised, the hijacker was wearing sunglasses which is a huge determinant in guessing age, the hijacker dyed his hair, which is also helpful in determing age, etc. Not to mention that skydiving is a young man's sport.

So, whomever decided to eliminate anyone under 40 is a fool.

I know this is not FBI policy. Why? Because the FBI investigated the heck out of McCoy, who was only 29, but could not tie him to Portland or the plane.

left

Here's the million dollar question when OD calls h-bach on the phone (you can do it, OD, please)

IF TED Mayfield did not call in at 10pm on the 24th, would you have investigated him as possibly being Cooper. I'll bet you anything he says "yes".

 

[Old Dominion]

Well, I think it would be behooved H-bach to interview flo. Especially since she told us he was only "40".

"Closed mind" is not what any FBI agent is about EVER, unless there is an agenda. How many cases in history (FBI 101?) have been solved by loosely interpreting the facts and allowing a tolerance for error? CLOSED MIND=AGENDA. Period.

The original description given to the FBI, was about 45-50, when the hijacking first began in the air. However, anyone with a half a brain knows age is difficult to determine, the hijacker was disguised, the hijacker was wearing sunglasses which is a huge determinant in guessing age, the hijacker dyed his hair, which is also helpful in determing age, etc. Not to mention that skydiving is a young man's sport.

So all you do is take a few pictures of skydivers (especially those w/criminal records!) and show them to the flight crew. Bumbler....incompetent...not a very good investigator? I think not. A class of 7th graders would have done as much and solved the case.

So, whomever decided to eliminate anyone under 40 is a fool.

Fool...stupid...tepid IQ...this only goes so far. Doesn't work at all. Basic procedure even followed loosely would have nailed the perp. with a photo ID. Tsk tsk tsk...doesn't work.

I know this is not FBI policy. Why? Because the FBI investigated the heck out of McCoy, who was only 29, but could not tie him to Portland or the plane.

They didn't know Teddy-boy, and wanted to make sure RFM wasn't Cooper. Not too difficult to track RFMcCoy's whereabouts only 4 months after the fact. Amazing what you can accomplish when you don't PERSONALLY know one of the principals in a case.
[/quote]

OD

 

[leftcoast]

After seeing the new sketch of Cooper, do you see how that sketch has any chance of being McCoy or WEber? I don't in a million years.

Anyway, I beg you to call H-bach. HE doesnt' bite.

Just ask him about the case. Trust me. You will come away with a different opinion, or you can get proof to help establish your suspicions. A no lose situation.

Heck, I went up to a complete stranger, an armed robber, an airplane thief, a potential hijacker, and talked to him. And this was in person. HEck, I could be feed for someone's cattle today. But, it really helped me understand the personality

At least think about it.

What is the down side?

left

 

[Old Dominion]

After seeing the new sketch of Cooper, do you see how that sketch has any chance of being McCoy or WEber? I don't in a million years.

No. But "Dar Bingle" looks taylor made for Mccoy! T'wood be interesting to know when that one came out! How could anyone who saw DB (if he is indeed Mayfield) allow (nod "OK") on a sketch like that?

Anyway, I beg you to call H-bach. HE doesnt' bite.

Just ask him about the case. Trust me. You will come away with a different opinion, or you can get proof to help establish your suspicions. A no lose situation.

Heck, I went up to a complete stranger, an armed robber, an airplane thief, a potential hijacker, and talked to him. And this was in person. HEck, I could be feed for someone's cattle today. But, it really helped me understand the personality

At least think about it.

What is the down side?

left

So what you're saying is devoid of the facts I'm aware of, IF I give H-B a chance at working his "bumbling charm" on me I'll see it another way?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

No. But "Dar Bingle" looks taylor made for Mccoy! T'wood be interesting to know when that one came out! How could anyone who saw DB (if he is indeed Mayfield) allow (nod "OK") on a sketch like that?



So what you're saying is devoid of the facts I'm aware of, IF I give H-B a chance at working his "bumbling charm" on me I'll see it another way?

OD

NO, What I am saying is that I think you need to hear his side of the story. He may have a different viewpoint, have inside information, or just be plain stupid. But, since he is a retired FBI agent, I think you should at least listen to what he has to say, and make your decision accordingly.

Have you ever thought something bad about someone or something, then you talked to them, and realized that they saw things differently, and hence you could understand their actions.

In other words, H-bach is the surgeon, Teddy is his son. Hospitals don't allow surgeons to operate on family because they are too close. Maybe, the same is true in this case.

I think h-bach deserves to explain why he didnt' investigate Teddy, just like you allowed me last summer to explain that Teddy didn't get jail time for armed robbery, teddy lived across from the airport, and teddy was never investigated. IN the end, I convinced you that I was right, maybe, H-bach has a valid argument for his point of view.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

.

In other words, H-bach is the surgeon, Teddy is his son. Hospitals don't allow surgeons to operate on family because they are too close. Maybe, the same is true in this case.

left

LC, THIS is not a good example of what "I think" you're trying to say. You might want to re-think this.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

LC, THIS is not a good example of what "I think" you're trying to say. You might want to re-think this.

OD

Yes, it is. H-bach does not have an independent view of this case because he already had a relationship with one of the possible suspects. I think H-bach asssumed Teddy was wealthy, and just had a brush with the law because one night he got drunk and out of hand.

If a FBi agent, who didn't know Teddy, had received that call, imo, he would have been suspicious. He would have asked the guy where he was, or why he was calling, thinking he may be in on it. HE would have no pre-conveived notion of Ted's past, how he looked, his age, etc. He would have looked at the armed robbery conviction differently.

I think H-bach had a vision of the hijacker, and a vision of Teddy, and didn't put the two together. PLus, h-bach didn't think Teddy needed the money, and had a profitable business.

An agent who didn't know Ted, might say, hey, maybe it is him, disguised, and trying to create an alibi.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Yes, it is. H-bach does not have an independent view of this case because he already had a relationship with one of the possible suspects. I think H-bach asssumed Teddy was wealthy, and just had a brush with the law because one night he got drunk and out of hand.

If a FBi agent, who didn't know Teddy, had received that call, imo, he would have been suspicious. He would have asked the guy where he was, or why he was calling, thinking he may be in on it. He would have looked at the armed robbery conviction differently.

I think H-bach had a vision of the hijacker, and a vision of Teddy, and didn't put the two together. PLus, h-bach didn't think Teddy needed the money, and had a profitable business.

An agent who didn't know Ted, might say, hey, maybe it is him, disguised, and trying to create an alibi.

left

You don't Investigate cases on "emotion" or "assumption", but on the facts. If you have reason to believe that those are going to factor it's time to recuse yourself from the big "I". Moreover you apply some modicum of "procedure" to your investigation, you don't selectively look the other way.

I don't need to call H-bach to be suckered into his personal "cause". There is no excuse whatsoever for how this investigation progressed, or more accurately DIDN'T PROGRESS. It's not like this case was complicated.

I do indeed see your point, but I'm sorry I can't subscribe to it.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

AZLAW

What is your take on H-bach. do you think he had tunnel vision, or do you think he looked the other way, and could he have been in on it.

I appreciate your judgement and open-minded opinions. What is your take.?

left

 

[Azlaw]

Keeping in mind that I have very little knowledge of this investigation, I will comment generally based on my experiences. I work with law enforcement on a daily basis in Arizona and I have had a few federal cases in California and Texas.

It is my experience that when things get overlooked or the ball is dropped, it is either due to laziness, lack of experience, or overworked detectives. My crime victims often feel there is a conspiracy or cover up but I have never found that to be true.

I am sure that conspiracies exist, but I subscripte to the Occam's Theory myself. The simplest explanation is usually correct.

I would assume (although assumptions are dangerous) that H-bach was not lazy in his general investigation since this crime was high profile. However, I would assume that he may have felt overburdened with the workload and number of leads he was working on and/or that he did not even think to look at Mayfield as a suspect because of the various reasons that have already been listed.

Sorry for the long response and waffling answer.

My bet would be overworked and/or tunnelvision.

 

[Old Dominion]

I agree. One agent on such a big case. Not smart.

And to have the agent in charge have zero experience skydiving. How in the world is he educated in skydiving to make such a claim. It is a very stupid claim

In the KOIN segment, the one searcher, said the jump "was a piece of cake", as did the "skydiving expert" from Mollala.

BTW Teddy told h-bach that the skydiver "was inexperienced and that it is inconceivable the skydiver could land uninjured". that was Ted in 1971, and the video on IE he states "I could have made that jump with no problem".

left

Well, let me elaborate. I'm not "full throttle" anymore that H-B was in on this from the beginning. I'll ease off that one, in fact...right now... I doubt it.

As for H-B burying this case? If you really think you're going to convince me otherwise (although it's possible) you've got an extremely steep hill to climb pulling a large load.

Let's just understand, that the amount of "skydiving" experience HB has WRT this case is irrelevant. What is more important is how "open" his mind is and how determined he is to solve this case (the two GO..HAND in HAND), and apply any amount of procedure and just one ounce of logic.

So, you've got a crime that probably only a few people could actually pull off and that field is cropped by the smaller sub-set of those who actually know the terrain. You've got a friend that easily has the ability to pull this off and has NEVER exactly been a "choir boy". He's on probation for armed robbery and he calls you the night of the heist to deliver an alibi. You hang your hat on that alibi w/o ever even considering the possibility. You check out other's alibis even though their record is so clean they probably never even scooped the Brachs off the candy floor even as a child, but you don't bother with Teddy-boy's.

No less than 12 people call your friend's name in the night of the heist. God only knows how many others, in the course of your meager investigation, pointed you in the same direction and he's still written off. YOU DON'T even show his photo to the stewardesses let alone interview them. Four (4!) copycats successfully pull off identical crimes even thought they're caught at a later time. Even 10-15 years later you're still trying to convince the public "It's just not reasonable to make a jump like that and survive". Another HB quote WRT Mayfield is "His name came up so many times...I don't know". YES YOU DO KNOW!

Then some 20+ years later in your retirement you spend countless hours convincing the FBI to open a case on Duane Weber, a man who only resembles one of the worthless sketches. There is no evidence whatsoever that Duane has ever even jumped out of an airplane, let alone been in the Northwest. Ever wonder how many times his name came up the night of the heist? I'd be willing to guess bagel, or doughnut.

Many years later you're confronted with 2 sleuths who have done their homework. They present a series of shows on none other than the most likely suspect that "Barney Fife" would have nailed in short order. You in your best "lobster face" admit that he would have been a good suspect, but you don't, haven't, and to our knowledge, "won't" pick up the phone and in the name of justice call the FBI.

And all this is just "incompetence" of a "morally" good agent....R-E-A-L-L-Y?


OD